Attorney Richard Lomurro - Personal Injury

 0:00

 And I would say that most of my friends who really hated being or don't like being lawyers is that. 1s They got stuck. Stuck? In an area of law that they didn't like, and they were making good enough money. Right. And they did, you know. Yeah. And that that's like a poison in our profession. And it can happen. And maybe it's a poison in any profession. Maybe, maybe the person who's doing colonoscopies doesn't really want to do colonoscopies, but they've been doing it for 20 years and they are making good money. But, I mean, I think the practice of law can be like that. And if you find yourself getting put into a corner that you don't want to be in, get out. 1s Welcome back to the Mighty Merp podcast. Melissa Rosenblum, criminal defense attorney from Atlantic City, will be hosting Rich Lamoureux, a personal injury attorney from freehold, new Jersey, and the Lamoureux law firm. You can find out more at Lamoureux Law.com. 1s Goodbye, Tom. 1s You're still listening. First of all, I want to say I love that you got the dress down Friday memo. Yeah. I mean, there was no way I was wearing a suit on Friday unless I have court. And I didn't have court, so I was at the jail today, so there was no way I was wearing a suit today either. 1s Is that a rare occasion for you? So I tried to go to the jail at least once every two weeks, 1s which is always hard to do. I do not wear suits to the jail because you have to then dry clean them. And although I wear professional clothes, you know, almost every day, because I'm in court, I do not dress in a traditional suit like men do. I wear a lot of dresses and a little bit more funky. I think women can get away with it more. Yeah, you can have more fun, but I 100% appreciate what you're saying. With the jail, it feels like there's a layer of something on everything there. So if I can avoid wearing something that I'll regret, have to clean. You know, it's a lot easier just to wear some dress down stuff to the jail. I wasn't like that when I was first practicing. I was like, oh, I got to wear suit. And then I come to realize, when you go into the jail, there isn't some nice courtroom that they put you in. You're in there in the pod with your client sitting on the stool that's covered with the film I described a minute ago, so I don't have to wear a suit to jail anymore. There you go. So, rich, tell me about sort of your origin story. Where you went to law school, the type of law you practice, and all the power that you have at Lamar Law Firm. You know, all your fancy titles and all. Sure. So I'm a legacy in terms of the law because my dad is a trial lawyer. So I grew up in that world, and I guess the best way I could put it is my dad was a really happy guy, and I said to myself, well, he seems to like what he's doing every day. And I admired what he did. He seemed to have a feeling of purpose, and he still does. He's 72. He still comes to the office. He love, love, loves being a trial lawyer, specifically a trial lawyer. Okay, so when I say that I've been practicing law for 17 years, I've really been practicing law for 41 years. That's what it feels like because I was I was raised in a home that appreciated what it meant to be a trial lawyer. That being said, I resisted it for a very long time, which rebel children will do. And you know, I dried cars when they came out of the tunnel at the car wash, and I cut meat at a deli rather than working at his office growing up because of the big, gigantic chip on my shoulder. But after I went to college at Seton Hall Go Pirates. I went to Weidner Law down in Delaware. I did all the. Yeah go, Weidner. I did the Trial Advocacy Honor Society down there, and I was trying cases against other schools in Philadelphia and stuff like that. I took to it. It felt right. It felt like it was what I was good at and I enjoyed it. I then went to Temple University and got a master's degree in trial advocacy, which we can call an overachiever. So that was an additional stage of learning how to try cases through school. But cutting my teeth wise again, back to my father giving him credit. He had us do public defender work for a very long time, and that is where I really learned to to hone my skills in the courtroom, because I was trying the hardest cases with the most challenging clients, going to the places that people have a hard time being in, like the jails. And, you know, you're going to be tried in a way that you'll never be tried in other industries. I feel like doing public defender work. So I did, and I got. Did you work at the public defender's office or were you taking pool cases and handling public defender clients? So I was taking pool cases, handling public defender clients. But I also served as the municipal public defender in Howell Township and Freehold Borough for like six years. So I was and that was so you say 2 to 2 sessions a week and freehold on Tuesday, and then three sessions with Howell, and then I was doing like tons of DWI trials and stuff like that. It's kind of like rapid fire in municipal court, whereas the pool work was longer, more, more high level offenses. Right. Well, I always tell people, I tell young attorneys all the time that the best training ground in learning is at any public defender's office. And I yeah, I started in Philadelphia at the public defender's office there. And you know, it's a you're training for about two years before you even get a jury trial and handling municipal court lists that have anywhere from like 35, 50, 70 cases. If if it had more than 50, you usually split the list. So you really learn how to try cases. And then when I came to new Jersey, I was working with another attorney who I later became a partner with. But in order to build up my own caseload for about five years, I did do pool work, and it was an amazing way to be able to try cases because, you know, you build a name as somebody who can effectively advocate and fight cases, that later the clients will come back and pay you. But you need to. Yeah, especially for what I do mainly now, which is personal injury. I have 17 years of clients who send me work, so the public defender client, who I represented in 20 10th May have an uncle who gets hit by a car. So it's ended up you really if you have long term vision, you can generate a lot of work from that type of volume that you get at the public defender's office or anything like that. Right. And you switched from criminal to doing all or mostly personally for you. I know your firm does a little, which I was about to get to in a minute, a little bit of everything. But you're handling mostly personal injury, mainly personal injury. I, I consider myself somewhat of a rare bird. And then I'll do kind of any general litigation. If you have a trial in front of a jury, I'll do it. I've done murders. I've done. Wrongful deaths I've done. You know, I'm not I don't necessarily pigeonhole myself in one area of law. And now that being said, it's like 95% personal injury now, because just out of the sheer fact of that being the most beneficial to my firm for me to be doing that. So that's what I'm doing. And your firm is a unique in the sense and I believe this is still correct. You have certified trial attorneys in every practice area, correct? Yep. We're the only firm in new Jersey. So the Supreme Court in New Jersey offers five certified trial certifications. That's a repeat certified certifications anyway. You have family, you have criminal, you have municipal, you have worker's comp, and then you have personal injury civil. I'm a certified civil trial attorney, but we have all of them. And it's we're the only firm that has all five of the certifications. Right. And I'm a certified criminal trial attorney. And just so everyone knows, in order to be certified, you have to take extra exams, at least for criminal. Yep. You have to get letters of recommendations from judges, prosecutors and defense attorneys. You have to demonstrate 30 hours of trial experience within a three year period of time. 1s And then you go before board. I mean, your application goes before board and you're either deemed certified or not. So it's the Supreme Court saying you're an expert in that area of law. Right. And it's a very intensive vetting process. And there aren't a lot of them. There's not a lot of certified lawyers. So it is a it's a true accomplishment. I'm very proud of it. And when I swear I'd never take another test in my life, sure enough, I did. And I'm thankful that I got through on my first try. So I don't ever intend to take another one, but I probably will. You don't have to take another exam. I don't know if you're recertified yet. I'm certified and re certified, so I'm not there yet. But I know it. I know it will come. I hope you're keeping a list of those trials, because I don't even think. But I tried a case last week. But you're right, I should really just constantly this the seals. You do them all the time. You don't necessarily remind yourself to keep the list. You're right. Yeah, because you have to redo the application. I don't know what the percentage of personal injury I know. Criminal is even more a little bit more niche than civil. 1s I think there's very many criminal. There's the issue with criminal, frankly, is that prosecutors and public defenders are trying the cases. That's the truth of it. Yeah. You know, private attorneys aren't regularly trying cases. So if you're a prosecutor or a public defender, you probably have enough trials to get certified if you're not. It's not. I don't think that there's that many of them. No, there's I was going to say, I think in the state of new Jersey, there's only about 30 women in the whole state that's certified. Yes. And crazy. Yeah. And most of the women that are on the list are prosecutors or public defenders, because it is hard to get those trials because in the end, and I think this is what's benefited me, is that I tried a lot of cases when I was a pool attorney, to the point that the prosecutors know I can try a case. I was very successful, and 1s I think now it's really the motion practice that's you in a position to get the resolution of the case that you want, right? Right. And criminal. By the nature of the industry, there's not that many private clients. Most sadly, most people who are charged with crimes are going to be using the public defender's office. So again, going back to your point, female and private practice, I would imagine you're one of very few. That's what I would that's what I would imagine. Yeah, I always say that my clients are no different than the public defender clients. They're prioritizing their case. In a way that's true and me. But the financial end of it, most of my clients would qualify for the public defender's office. They're making a decision to try and use all the resources that they could possibly find. And, you know, that's how they should look at it. But not everybody does. So what I found really interesting about your law firm, and I think it's been like maybe just the way you've been promoting the law firm in the last year or so that I've seen is that there's definitely more digital and more sort of. 3s Um, technological advancements in the sense that, you know, I found it amazing that your law firm pretty much has a trial room that you and just correct me if I'm wrong, that you actually try the case before you try the case. Yes, that's that's our pride and joy. It is. Our trial room is what we call it. And it's equipped with cameras, and it's outfitted to be exactly like a courtroom. So when we have a big trial or any trial really coming up, we'll we'll bring a focus group in and we'll mock try it in front of jurors. Sometimes I just get a collection of people from the community to come in, try the case, record it as it would bring a judge in bringing the I've tried the case on the other side to see how the reaction would be when I think my adversary is going to go a certain way. And what ends up happening is you can see as we watch the jurors deliberate exactly what they're hinging onto, and you can see what arguments are landing, what arguments aren't landing. And when I tell you that it is absolutely mind blowing, what you learned through a mock trial in a real courtroom where our mock courtroom. It's true. It changes the landscape every time. Really, really exciting stuff. Are you videotaping the jury deliberation? So we do it in live time. So if we have the jury deliberating, we'll go into another conference room and we'll watch them as they're deliberating. Um, and we will also record our openings, record our closings. And so I've been before the Supreme Court twice. We'll always argue our arguments before three of our other lawyers, as if they were the judges or whatever, to try and prepare ourselves for our argument. And we'll do it in the courtroom. So. Oh, I might have to call you in the future. I've argued in front of the new Jersey Supreme Court once. It's probably my like when I talk about, like, worst trial legal experiences. Oh stop it. Are you serious? I'm not joking, I just. So why was this such a bad experience? So I'm going to tell you two reasons why. All right. I might have just been one reason. So I've done a lot of appellate arguments. I never argued in front of the Supreme Court before. I think the panel just being bigger was a little intimidating. It's weird. It stretches super long. And I will say that 1s I talked to two people about how to start the oral arguments. One was a friend from law school who was an appellate attorney in Delaware. So she argued in front of the Supreme Court of Delaware all the time. And she said, this is how you should do it. And then my partner said, you should come out really aggressive and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 3s That was not the way to come out at all. So I think that I started, I started in a way that did not help me in front of the court. Yeah, but it was an experience. I looked forward to having another experience in front of the Supreme Court. Hopefully, I will say it was a pool case that the public defender's office said, you know, you want at the trial level. I wanted the appellate level. They said, just going up yours, you know? Yeah. 2s I will say this I had the benefit of arguing. Third. So by the time they got to me, I was pretty aware of what they were wanting to know. And justice. 2s Went right at me at a question that I was expecting, so I didn't have to, like, go in with an argument. They came right at me, and I was able to kind of get into a back and forth discussion, which I think I'm better at than a canned argument. So I think I think my placement is being third to argue benefited me in that respect. I don't know if you were first. 2s No, I was second. I although I, you know, the way the state framed the facts of the case, I did not agree with. So that is counter that you know so 1s but it definitely is a different style than motion practice or trial practice. I don't there's anything like it I think would be appearing before the Supreme Court is uniquely intimidating. And that was one of the reasons I was so happy to have prepared the way I did, because we did like moot arguments many times before. So when they exchange came, I knew I knew exactly where I was going. Well, I mean, I think what you're doing is, you know, amazing service to your client because. 1s The idea of practicing at that level and having other I mean, they're obviously not Supreme Court justices, but they're intelligent lawyers. They're lawyers that know the issues and they're shooting questions at you in a manner that. 1s You know. 1s You can't. You can know some of the issues that are going to come up, but you're literally practicing. Oh, I forgot to remove the office phone. 3s Let's see if my staff pick up. They got it. Oh, the dog's in now. We got the dog. The dog is in. This is Brody. So yes, you're 100% right, but I do believe it's a great benefit to the clients. There's also one huge advantage for the clients, and that's that we get to put them through the process of a trial or them through a direct examination, or I'll cross them a lot of times and when I cross them. It helps them understand how much credibility is important in their direct correct. And how much sometimes they want to get loose. And when I cross them, it's like, that's what's going to happen if you go there. Yeah, yeah. And also even the simple things of the faces you make in response to and your mannerisms, the way you're presenting. And then they can see that and be like, oh, okay. So and I'm not kidding for the trial we did last week. We probably did the direct four times the week before, so when it was time to do it in the courtroom, it was like exactly how we wanted it to go. So when you say you're bringing in a jury or you're bringing in a judge, are these volunteers? Are these people that you're like, I'm just curious how you're able to replicate. We can get people to do jury trial. So the answer to that, you're 100% right. People aren't just going to walk in and say, oh, that sounds awesome. I put this is this is as clean as it gets. I put it on Facebook, we'll pay you a hundred bucks and buy you lunch. Come check out this mock trial. And then what ends up happening is they end up being super interested, and the experience is something that they want to do. So we've had a couple of people come back and serve as jurors more than once, but I'll just put it out to my network in social media. And I've never had a problem getting jurors. In terms of judges, I use a retired judge. We usually have a retired judge who works at our office to preside over the trial, or a very experienced trial lawyer who can, you know, try and hammer out some evidentiary issues that the the lawyers may be trying to understand, but also give a feel of genuine authority to the courtroom. Yeah. The evidence. Evidentiary rulings, I always think, are the most important. I always say to younger attorneys coming in, uh, you know, you you have a file of information, but not everything is admissible. And you need to know how you are planning on getting in the information that is helpful to you. And you need to know how to object and exclude the evidence that is going to hurt you. Right? You might not win all the arguments, but if you want something out, you better have a rule of evidence that you are going to put on the record you're going to object to, and you're going to know your argument ahead of time. Yeah, on the fly, that's much more critical in criminal cases. I think that you're always on the edge of your seat trying to understand is that a hearsay statement? Is that a suppressive issue, this and that in personal injury? I actually find that to be an extended exercise throughout the preparation of the file, because you're you're tasked with telling the story of someone who's been hurt. So you can't tell that story all of a sudden at trial without the tools that you've been needing to develop for the last three years. The witness is the records, all these things that need to be ready to be presented. So it's almost like polar opposites in a criminal case. You get it all right away usually, and you're just figuring it all out until you get to trial for personal injury. That file is evolving up to trial. People are treating they may be getting surgery months before trial. So it's such a different exercise. And it's interesting you say that understanding what you're going to get into the courtroom and what's going to be accepted is so important in telling the right story. Right? Right. So 1s how long is your office set up or has had this? You say trial, mock trial room. I'm like calling it like a war room in my mind. Well, I mean, that's how I feel about it. So that's fine. We could we could definitely call it the War Room. It's been a part of little mural law since little mural laws, probably second office, and we're on office number three. So that was at 90 West Main Street in Freehold. My dad got a building there like a colonial building, and he put a courtroom right in his own personal office, which was. 1s Probably the first time anybody had thought of doing that. I'm sure other people have done it by now, but it was really revolutionary when he did it. And ever since, no matter where we've gone into corporate complexes, we have a trial room. And the one we have now is just it's beautiful. It's worth coming to take a look at and and we use it every day. 1s It just sounds amazing for young attorneys to have such a really training ground. Yeah, we do we and but like you're saying training litigation meetings the young associates are in there were just constantly using that room. And especially if we don't go to court as much anymore, nobody goes to court anymore. Right. Maybe criminal practitioners, there are a lot. But you go to court. 1s I mean, I can never get in the courtroom, ever. Oh, I'm in a courtroom. So today was the first time in, like two weeks that I did not have a court appearance, even via zoom or in person. I didn't have anything. I'm I'm very common to zoom, but to be physically in court. Besides, I tried this case last week. Other than that, highly unusual. Yeah. The other thing, because I do domestic violence restraining order. Yeah. You're in for those. Yeah, those are in person and they're they're fast, you know. Well the the practice, criminal practice and what you're doing I miss a little bit of it. The urgency in that is a completely different type of practice of law. What I'm doing now with the personal injury stuff, when a client comes in, I say, get ready to know me real well because we're going to be together for a couple of years. It just doesn't move fast. The most catastrophic case, even if you think that it's cut and dry, it ain't going to end for a couple of months or a year or two years. Right? Well, I do say to my clients, especially the more complicated cases, that. You know, I have homicides, you know, murder charges, manslaughter charges. And those those do take a long time to percolate and be ready. So, 1s you know, I have so many people that want it done quickly. And I'm like, you know, criminal law is not like that. But we do go to court a lot for updates on it. You're hitting the nail on the head. Our judicial system, sadly, is not designed to be fast. And this you'll have a lengthy like I had a quadruple murder. It probably took five years for it to go to trial. It took forever. Now it was juvenile to adult, all that other stuff. But between A and B or C and the finish line, you're going to go to court a ton of times, right? Every status conference, you're probably in court. It could be three months before I have an update with a court on a p file. Yeah, yeah. So I, I don't handle any personal injury. I like to stay in my lane and my lane is criminal. And, you know, I think domestic violence cases, restraining orders, which actually happen to represent more victims and plaintiffs in that it's the same idea. There's police involvement, there's quasi criminal elements, you know, aspects to it. But, um, so I guess what I would ask you about the firm is. What you have is so unique. And yet, you know, I think it's about 80% of New Jersey's practitioners are solo or small law firms. Yeah that's true. You're right. And so my question is what would your suggestion be for trial attorneys. I your firm I mean you're not a large firm, but you're definitely not a small firm. I would consider you a pretty yeah, pretty standard midsize firm. But you know, I'm a I was a solo practitioner for almost five years, and I now have an associate. I do have a staff of, you know, paralegals helping us, but we're a two person law firm. I'm not putting a trial room in my office. Right. I might call you in the future when I need the trial for you. We've had people come in and ask us if they can use the room. I've had professionals outside of our industry asked and say, look, you know, we're trying to have this realistic setting for something we're coming into, and it looks like something we could use. So yeah, I love to share our resources and it's not uncommon for people to come in. To your point, though, you're right. 80% of practitioners are 1 to 3 people. Shops. Right. Lawyer shops. We're actually in Monmouth County. We're spearheading a mentorship program that the goal is to allow those people to reach out. Even people who are eight, ten years out who just may not have the same resources as a mid-size or a large size firm, and we're trying to provide those resources because it betters the whole practice, betters the whole bar to have those resources, because you may have somebody who says, oh, man, I've never done that type of case before, and they can't knock on the door next door. And so I think that that's so, so true. And I hope people think to ask other people who may have that knowledge. Well, I think even when you have been doing it a long time, I've been practicing 26 years. I still need to talk out cases with other all the time other experienced attorneys. I have to, you know, I have to. Break it down and make sure that I'm not missing anything, and that you know that sometimes crazy things happen. Which I'm going to ask you in a minute. And you know, when those crazy things happen, I call someone to say, listen to this. Because, you know, I think, I think the best attorneys are talking to other attorneys about maybe that's that's why we have litigation meetings. We go through ten lawyers in a room digesting issues about a case, and it's amazing what people think of. And I'm I'll admit right now, I've been doing this for 17 years. I'm a certified civil trial attorney before the Supreme Court. I always am curious and need help on cases. Always. We have a hard job. It's a hard job, and there's stuff that we're not thinking of. And it even goes as far as like lifestyle things. There's things that I just don't know about and people can help me understand different vantage points. Right. Well, you're going to come from it from your perspective. And so there are cases that I mean, even picking a jury, you know, you need to have a conversation about, do we want women more women? Do we want more men? What do we think of, you know, how people are going to interpret the case? I had a case with prostitutes. Who? 2s They were only convicted of the theft, but they were charged with a robbery of John's, you know, and then the question is, who did we want on the jury? And and, you know, we talked to a lot of people. I talked to people when I was getting manicures done. I talked to people dressers. Oh yeah. There's that's the that's the people sometimes you need to hear from. Right. And you know, do you feel bad for this, John. You know that. You know. Yeah. I'm fortunate to have a lot of friends who aren't lawyers. And they remind me all the time of that. But I do bounce stuff off them and I get a different opinion. Right? Yeah. So I'm going to change back to an earlier conversation that we were having about 1s your dad being an attorney and being such a big influence and sort of pushing against it. Initially I did, I did, and how old were you when you decided that I actually do want to be a lawyer, and 1s I'm going to I'm going to go this route even though I fought against it. So that's a good question. I have come to grips with the fact that I think I always wanted to be a lawyer. Like I like those movies. Growing up, I thought those were the interesting stories, but I was pretty sure I wanted to, like, do my own thing, be my own man. So after college and I go to law school, after law school, I started applying to other firms, and to my dad's credit, he was a he calls me moose, by the way. He was like, moose, do whatever you want to do, man. Go. Go explore. I clerked for a judge and Chancery Division judge, Todd Down, Atlantic County, too. So I was searching, I was searching. And I will tell you that when I was interviewing after that, one of the guys who I was interviewing with was so honest with me, and I appreciate it to this day about what he said to me. He said, Rich, your dad is an outstanding lawyer. Your dad is someone who we all respect and love. And in three years, you're going to realize you want to practice with your dad. So why would anyone hire you now when we know where you're going in three years? And after that interview, I like I like, immediately swallowed my pride. And I was like, man, I do love this guy. And I do realize that he's kick ass at what he does. And and it's okay that I go there and learn from him as opposed to making it on my own. For some reason, that was the moment. I don't know why, it just was. And then from that on, I was like, man, I'm in law. Let's go. Yeah. So I am getting a little bit of the parent perspective on this right now because I have. Yeah, you probably are. I have a 23 year old who I'm going to brag about, graduated magna cum laude from Suny Binghamton. Oh, look at look at her, her look at her. And she knew she was taking a gap year 1s because I'm a terrible, mean mom and said that they were going to have my kids had to pay for graduate school, law school, whatever their next step was. And just in my defense, so people feel bad for me. I have four children and I have three kids in college right now. Yeah. You're not retiring. I'm never retiring. Ever. Ever. I love what I do, I love what I do, I love what I do. So she thought she wanted to go to law school, and she's been working at my firm. And and after a clerkship with the court this summer, she decided she does not want to go to law school, 1s and she wants to go get a master's in social work. And I am very proud of her. She wants to she knows she wants to probably work with kids in foster care after a experience that she's had. 1s I'm very proud of her, but she's working at my law firm right now and she's really embarrassed by it. And she said yesterday to a group of of us, it was a group of women, all lawyers, and she was with us and she said, I don't want to be considered a nepo baby. 1s She didn't like admitting she was working at my law firm, and I was like a nepo baby. And it just was interesting. Yeah, I appreciate it, I do. 1s Yeah. So the attorney, one of the attorneys that we were with, whose father was a judge in Atlantic County who has since retired, said, if you're thinking you might be a nepo baby and you're aware of the nepo baby, you're not a nepo baby. She was like, the nepo babies have no insight into this. They. Yeah, you're right. And 1s it's interesting you say that there's there is a tendency for legacy lawyers to either. Take it as seriously as humanly possible and go as hard as they can because they believe in it. Or the polar opposite, which is the door was open for me. I'll just, you know, do whatever I want to do. But I see legacy lawyers really performing well. If they if they embrace what it is that they're the responsibility and the, the gift that they've been given. Because I feel that that's how I feel about it. I feel like I was given this super training that other people didn't have the benefit of. Right. And I like the legacy lawyer language and vocabulary and verbiage is so important in our in our field versus. Yeah, absolutely. Versus the nepo baby or the neko Wordage because it sounds like she doesn't she didn't earn her job. And I think at my office and I think, you know, sweetie, like, I love you, but if you were not capable of doing the work that you're you would not be here because, you know, it's just not the way it works for me. So but it was nice to have, you know, that like. And that was something one of my dad's partners said to me early on, which is like, nobody thinks you're getting an easier day because you're working for Donald Muro. I mean, it's probably to me it's always been a harder task, and I'm okay with that. Right? Because you want to prove yourself independent of your father, right? Right. Right. Yeah. So, okay, I'm going to wrap this up with one. Thank you so much for talking. I think we could talk forever. So. Yeah, I'm going to. I told you, I'm going to be the easiest podcast you'll ever do. And you can bring me back on anytime. I love it. That's great. So I have a little segment that's called Crazy Courtroom Stories. And okay. And I like to hear, you know, maybe a five minute crazy courtroom story that people wouldn't believe unless you tell them. And I'll give you a very short one as an example that I use. Philadelphia preliminary hearing standing at the bar of the court, preliminary hearings are three minutes at a client shifting nervous with their hands in our pocket. And by the end of the hearing, she dropped some heroin out of her pocket onto the ground. 1s That is, as soon as the hearing was done. She was then rearrested on new charges of drug possession. And then after that, I remain. Remember to always tell my client not to bring their drugs to court or just drop them in the courtroom. Okay, so I have a funny one that comes to mind. Similar to that, 1s there's kind of two ways I could go about this. One, I could tell you the craziest case, which would blow your mind, but that's different. So I'll tell you an entertaining story. Back in my public defender days in Freehold Borough Municipal Court, because we talked about that. So this is a fun one. So my client who's like seven feet tall, giant guy and he's saying to me all day, man, Rich, I can't go to jail. I can't go to jail, I can't go to jail. And he's got his third driving while suspended. He's going to go to jail. He owes money and he's got me innocent and green and like, feeling so nervous for him right out of law school, municipal court, public defender that I'm begging, begging the court like on my knees. Please let this man go home to his family and to his kids. He'll pay $20 tomorrow. Whatever it takes. Please, please, please, please, please. So then the judge addresses my client and says, well, Mr. Smith, whatever his name might have been. 1s Le Muro says that you can get $20 tomorrow. You owe $400. That's, you know, 1s 14 days in the county jail. Or I can let you go home and make a phone call and try and get some money. And after having spent not getting you four hours of this guy telling me how he could never go to jail and he never make it. He looks down at me, all seven foot tall, looks down to me, looks judge. He goes, I'll just do time, man. 2s And I couldn't believe it. I'm like, ready to cry for this guy, you know? So I wouldn't call it the craziest story that's ever happened to me. But that emphasizes kind of the whole public defender experience that I had, which was I was bleeding hard on the floor for these people. Yeah. So I told Tom this story and I'll finish with finish it with you. I had an actual trial in municipal court in Philadelphia, and it was like inappropriate touching type case, misdemeanor. I tried the case. The judge. It was a bench trial judge said not guilty at the end of the bench trial. And afterwards my client says to me. You know, you should think about going to law school. You'd be a really good attorney. 2s Right. So you punched in the face. I know, I was like, it happened regularly when I was in music. I won a case for somebody, and they told me. So have fun playing cricket or whatever it is that you do now. Like this? Yes. It was a wild time when you're representing public defender clients. Yeah. And maybe one day you will go to law school. Wouldn't that be? I did have to say I had to, like I couldn't let it go. I said, I am a lawyer, I want to yeah, yeah, like you have to. I also, you know, all kidding aside, I was probably 26 and and I looked. 1s Younger than 26. And I remember those moments like, I remember Mr. Smith. I remember my pants getting pulled down by him after having just poured my heart out to the judge. And that was like when I was younger. And now I've argued the highest level cases in the world. I don't think about those. I think about Mr. Smith going to jail. That's what I think about the court. Laugh at you after you laughed. I mean, he knows the judge knows me. So he's like, dude, you were just trying. So and he's trying to give me a bone. And then this man, I'll just do time, man. Like what? What were we doing all day? But that was that was the life that we were living. Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to ask just like three follow up questions, would you recommend being a lawyer to somebody who just graduated college? 2s Would you recommend being a lawyer to young or a younger you? Yes I would, yes. 2s But not not just anyone who graduated college. Yeah, I, I wouldn't recommend it. Um. 2s I wouldn't recommend it to someone who believes that they don't want to take the extra mile to practice good law. Like, if I could just say, like, seriously, only do it if you really think you're going to do it. Like don't don't half assed practicing law and not the law school. Yeah, I just I just wouldn't encourage it as a career for somebody who's not passionate. If you're passionate and you dig it and you were like, like I was like, those were the movies you like, those are the things that you enjoyed, then do it. But if you're not, don't. Yeah I agree. What I would say is, if you're not sure, if you're not 100% in, then you're not. Don't go. It's a lot of money. Don't go. 1s And then you seem like me. I really like what I do. Yeah. I'm tired at times. I work really hard, but I like what I do. I will say I have a lot of friends who do not. Right? Right. But I think I think that that's apparent. Like it's my clients know that when people come to see me like, it's pretty obvious that I believe in what I do, and I'm good at what I do, and I and I'm passionate about it. And if you were not, you may be able to practice law, but you're never going to generate big. You're never going to get like, really? Maybe the result is here for the average. You don't you really want up here, right? Right. So and I think that that, that that like oozes through when people talk to me, I think it oozes through when people talk to you and you know it right away. It's not like you can't fake that. I don't think and I would say that most of my friends who really hated being or don't like being lawyers is that. 1s They got stuck, stuck, stuck in an area of law that they didn't like and they were making good enough money. Right. And they said, you know. Yeah. And that that's like a poison in our profession and it can happen. And maybe it's a poison in any profession. Maybe, maybe the person who's doing colonoscopies doesn't really want to do colonoscopies, but they've been doing it for 20 years and they are making good money. But, I mean, I think the practice of law can be like that. And if you find yourself getting put into a corner that you don't want to be in, get out. Quick story on that. My dad, of all his wisdom, had one terrible idea, which was to try and get his son to practice municipal bond law 1s when, I mean, because there's a political aspect to it, a little, you know, schmoozing thing. The practice of it was so. Unlike me on a day to day basis. I actually I was like, I am, I'm not going to do this. McAdoo Public Finance, so I don't want to be involved in it. And when I stopped doing that and started going to litigation, it was like, oh man, what in the world was I doing? And I think people do get stuck in the place maybe they didn't want to be. And there could have been a really nice place. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know if I would have had it in my 20s or early 30s when I was practicing. I did pick criminal. I knew I wanted criminal, I wanted to do that. But I now have had young attorneys, mostly women that are at big law firms, and they're making good money and they'll say, I'm in this, 1s I'm in this division. What are law firms? I'm in this practice area, this firm. This is where they put me and I, I'm not really liking it or enjoying it. And they'll be maybe one year out of their clerkship. And I say to them, fix it now. Change it now because one year will become 20 years. Just well, and then and then you're miserable. Yeah. The flip side of it now and I think you'll appreciate this is I'm, I've been litigating for so long that I feel like I can try anything. You probably feel that way, too. So in a way, like I have a broader range now than I did when I was younger, but it is because I did what I wanted to do, and I and I was able to do it well. So now I think if you needed to, you could go try something that was a little outside of your expert zone. I can try it. You can try it. So if you called me and said, yes, I have a plaintiffs case and I need someone sitting second chair and all the depositions were done, right, right, right. Everything was done. I do feel that I can try any case in front of a front of a trial or bench trial, either or. But I did do when I opened up my my firm. 1s Which was just me. When I left the other firm I was a partner in and opened up my own firm. I did do municipal defense work for the city, and it was because I was able to get the contract and it was a guaranteed income for a certain amount, no question. And it was 2s Atlantic City. And that's a tough calendar. That's a tough calendar. It was, I have to say, it was it did suck the life out of me and. Yeah. And and I will say because criminal doesn't have the same deadlines as civil does and you don't have to calendar things like you do in civil. And I was really happy, I think I did it. I don't know if I did it two full years or three full years, but it was really nice at the time that my business was doing so well that I could say, thank you so much, and I'm not going to continue doing this. I agree with you. The cases that keep me up in the middle of the night aren't criminal cases. They're civil cases because the deadlines are terrifying. Yeah. You know criminal. You have deadlines. But if you miss a deadline and it was probably the worst lesson I ever learned, they're not going to say you can't file the Miranda motion because it's going to come back on a post-conviction deal, right? You're going to yeah. You don't get your expert report in time on a catastrophic injury case. You're not going to get that expert in. Yeah. And your case could go from a seven figure case to a six figure case. Then it's on you. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't handle that stress. It's a lot. And that's why I think for P.I., we have a huge department with a lot of people checking and balancing. I think that's that's why paralegal is probably more important in P.I. than any other department, in my opinion. Right. Well, my paralegals are really both. Both of them are criminal justice or political science with bachelor degrees, you know, because they're writing letters and, you know. Yeah. So I'm going to let you go because I know you have a soccer practice or game. It's practice. And I've been told you better be there at 515, which is five minutes from my house. So we're fine. All right. Well, we're good. I want very much I want to thank you again. I am going to use for my next appellate argument. I'm going to come up and I'm going to say, you guys practice. Yeah. Come on up. Well, it'll be fun. We're recorded, you'll have a great time. And then you're going to kick up at the argument. There you go. So thank you. And I can't wait to see this. Listen to the full episode of The Mighty Moore Podcast. Go Merp. Love it. All right. Thank you. I send you some merch. Jan. Well, all right. See you don't don't shut your computer yet. You tell me when. 4s All right. Thank you for joining us. 
tell me when.
48:07
All right. Thank
48:07
you for joining us