Raising the Bar For Attorney Wellness - Jeralyn Lawrence

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 Hi Jerilyn, welcome back to the Mighty Mercer Podcast. How are you? I'm good. Hi, Melissa. Good to see you again. How's everything? Everything is good. I like that you got the pink memo. 2s That's why I picked this blazer out for you this morning. 2s Mighty Sherpa is available on iTunes, Spotify, and all your favorite apps and players. But the best way to experience the show is to visit Mighty Merp. Com 2s that's great. That's great. So I sort of know that you were out of the country last week at a new Jersey State Bar Association. Is it semi-annual meeting? Yeah, it's called the mid-year meeting. So it's a mid-year meeting. We were in Paris, France. We had a good time. I got back Saturday. So a little bit of jet lag today. 1s There you go. You didn't just sleep all day Sunday. I tried, but no too much to do. 2s I know you were teaching there, right? You were. It was the 1s attorneys doing CLE credits while you were in Paris. But was there any little bit of a mental health break while you were there? Or relaxation for sure. Yeah for sure. I brought my 13 year old twins with me and they were really good travel companions. We had a good time, so tons of downtime. But certainly there were networking opportunities, the ability to spend time with colleagues, 1s but absolutely time for wellness and taking care of yourself and stepping away from the practice and business of law, for sure. 2s So that's really why we're here today. I know we spoke previously about attorneys and mental health issues and really from before your presidency until now, it's really. 2s You know, there's now a the Supreme Court committee, wellness committee. And before we jump into the committee, I would love to hear your sort of when you decided that this was such an important part of your platform as president and then everything executing and where we are today. 1s So yeah, I mean, it started certainly before my presidency because it was a lot of work leading up to the presidency, just getting the putting lawyers first task force in place and subcommittees formed and things like that. And. Really, I can tell you. What struck me was a quote from Desmond Tutu. And you'll see that in the putting lawyer's first report. And it was, we need to stop pulling people out of the river. We need to look upstream and find out why they're falling in. And that just really resonated with me 1s as to why is this job so hard? I love being a lawyer. Absolutely do. I just didn't anticipate that it would be so hard. So the focus was to really let's focus on lawyers and well-being. But what areas was was making being a lawyer so difficult? So we looked at the ethics and the fee arbitration system. We looked at what was making lawyers. 1s Not feeling healthy, not feeling well. And so that became the the genesis for putting lawyers first. And then 1s as I became president and the task force was well underway, the state bar association, we. 1s Hired a professor out of Utah to help us develop a survey and survey questions to send to attorneys across the state. 2s On attorney wellness and what they thought about it, what their feelings were. And we got about 1700 responses, some pretty compelling responses back from our colleagues as to how they were feeling. 1s And since hearing from them and how they were feeling. We've been able to really take some concrete steps. The Supreme Court committee that you and I sit on together certainly is one of those. And I think that that committee is going to do good work. But the survey really, you know. 2s Let us know just how pervasive of a problem this is. I mean, when you. Oh, I'm sorry, I was going to say, did you know a lot of attorneys personally that were struggling prior to the whole putting lawyers first? I mean, I think individually, even if you love what you do and I love what I do as well, but the stress of not only the business end of being a lawyer, but I think we carry the the emotional burdens of our clients sometimes. You know, I can't say I can say for me, like I am dealing with life and freedom of my clients. It's stressful. So there are times that it weighs heavy on my heart. You know, no matter. I know it's work, but it's still people's lives. So I guess my question is, did you did you know individuals or were people talking to you about their struggles where you saw people were already in the river? Yeah, as you say. I mean, so many people, I feel like it's almost every lawyer that I talk to is in the river. You know, some may have their toe in the river and some may be up to their neck in the river. I mean, there's not one lawyer that I didn't talk to that didn't talk about the stress and pressure of being a lawyer. I mean, think about, you know, what it is that we do, right? Somebody makes a total mess of something in their life or is handed a total mess, and they bring it to us, and somehow we have to fix it and fix it well and fix it for a reasonable price in a, you know, expedited fashion. So everybody that I talked to, every lawyer would talk about some form of stress or wellness or how to manage it, or they were just straight out leaving the profession. They just were saying, I'm not doing this anymore. I can't live like this. The pace of this life. Is not something I'm willing to deal with. So. I can't tell you that there was somebody that I came across that didn't have a health and wellness complaint, so it was talking to all of our colleagues about that, that I said, you know, and everybody liked being a lawyer. You know, you don't go to law school and spend all that money to think that it's not going to be a career that you stay with. So talking to people about it, 1s but no one could really put. 1s You know. 1s Their finger on the pulse of what was was causing it. And. 1s You know, when I was talking to and still continue to talk to people about the problems in the profession, 1s what the statistic that just blew me away was the 10% of our colleagues that have felt suicidal or had suicidal ideations that, you know, I didn't anticipate. 2s I mean, I knew it was out there because, you know, a colleague in the family law world 2s that really was a. 1s You know, an innovator in his time. You know, he's really brought internet marketing to the family law field. He. 2s Was very passionate about marketing. He took his own life, he jumped off a bridge, 2s and I think we were all reeling with that. We didn't understand how somebody on video, so gregarious and vocal and passionate about the law, could be so despondent, 1s right, that he would do that. And, you know, there's been some suicides of late in Hudson County. I think there was one down in your county. I had heard that somebody jumped was there was this year one of the parking garages of seats. And if everyone who knows him. You know. And I knew him. Describe him as, you know, the kindest, friendliest, you know, always happy, always positive person like when you saw him. You know, some people when you're when you say, how are you? And you know, it's an opening for them to kind of lay their complaints down. And this was an individual that never had those complaints. He was, you know, extremely well liked. And it was shocking. And it's scary when it's not just lawyers but professionals that have access to. 2s To caregivers and medical. And they still can't. They see nowhere no way out. It's just shocking. Right. And so, 1s you know when that happened. 2s Back in the the family lawyer that I'm talking about. I mean, to me that was unfathomable. And to now here that that's happened recently down by you Hudson County's had you know two I think earlier in the summer. And then I just heard when I was in Paris that there was another one recently. And to me. 1s If that's not alarm bells blaring, you know, I don't know what is, but. So to think that 10% of the people that responded to that said that they had considered suicide or thought about suicide was alarming. But there's also a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, a lot of burnout. 1s Yeah, I was surprised about the level of the anxiety and depression numbers from from that survey. And then the number wasn't as surprised about the alcohol issue, 1s because I do think that lawyers, at least trial attorneys, that I know there's a high capacity of drinking, especially at bar events, but just the numbers seemed, you know, 2s like alarming and and clearly concerning for our profession as a whole. I agree. So one of the things that the state Bar Association did 1s in response to putting lawyers first and out of concern for the survey and what we were seeing is. We took about, we took two and $250,000 out of our reserves, and we 1s hired a company. It's called CNA, Charles and Associates. And now any member of the State bar, and they're members of their household. Receive three free therapy sessions. And there's more details to that. But 1s as of the first four months of us offering that service, we've had over 700 phone calls. We're helping over 400 lawyers, I think close to 500 lawyers. And the main issues were helping them with are not alcohol or drug related. Believe it or not, it's anxiety. It's depression. It's related to relationships. So we know that there's. 2s A need out there. 1s And yes, while we do have the Lawyers Assistance program, which. 1s Predominantly, I think, focused on alcohol and drug issues. There's a big gap there with lawyers knowing that there's resources out there for their mental health. So we have to try to find a way going forward to make sure that we can offer CCNa or a program like that to our members. To me, to think 700 phone calls in four months is is a shocking number. I mean, it's a sad number, 2s but there's you feel grateful that there's that program in place to help people. Do you think people are more willing to call, or are they asking about whether calling regarding any mental health issues are going to affect their law license? Do you think that's changed because of the change of being admitted into the bar? Now that you don't have to answer that question about mental health, or it's been worded in a way that you don't really have to divulge if you've had a prior diagnosis of anxiety, and I guess I should say is prior to the change that happened this year, you had to include mental health in the character and fitness part of becoming a lawyer. Right. Well, that was another big accomplishment, I think, of putting lawyers first with the collaboration of Seton Hall Law School and Rutgers Law School and the law students. There is really and I think the chief himself personally revised that question. That's how deeply he cares about the issue 1s and so on. The character and fitness question now for our law students so that they're not deterred from addressing their mental health. So. 3s They'll now be encouraged, I think, in law school instead of discouraged to treat their mental health. But the calls with with the state bar program, they're all confidential. There's no mandatory report. I mean, the only thing we know is the number of calls and the category of of treatment just to kind of give us some feedback. 1s But we don't we're they're not being reported 1s anywhere. 2s Right. But I do think attorneys generally in the past have had issues with acknowledging. Either mental health drug or alcohol because of the concerns of how it could affect them professionally in this field. 2s I agree. But hopefully now knowing that there's a program out there that it's confidential. 2s And, you know, some some lawyers said they wouldn't go to therapy through their firm insurance because they didn't want their firm to find out. So now you don't have to go through your insurance if you don't want to. They'll offer you a sliding scale for for reduced rate payments. So hopefully that helps. You know, I just think by talking about it, you know, by you on this show, giving this a platform is important. And you know, 700 people calling in four months is really monumental I think. Right. I agree with you. And I think that I think. 2s I think it's going to change as the kids in college and law school, as they continue into the profession about talking about mental health. And I say this as having three kids in college and they talk about their mental health, and a lot of kids are on medicine for anxiety or depression, and it's not as taboo as it was with us going through law school. And when we first started becoming lawyers or practicing, I think it's I think with everything that our kids have been through, including the pandemic, that, you know, it's something that they talk about more freely and without any shame connected to it. 1s That's a wonderful thing, right? It's a good thing. 1s So. 1s In addition to. 2s The services for counseling. 2s The last thing, which is really where I want to talk about where you see the Wellness Committee moving forward and sort of the future goal. 2s As you know, the Supreme Court created this Wellness Committee. It's made up of lawyers and judges throughout the state. I'm very honored to be on it. I think it's great that we have 1s judges and lawyers from the southernmost part of new Jersey all the way to the northern. And it's interesting, as we're meeting to see what our goals are and sort of where we're moving forward. And so I thought maybe you could share a little bit about the committee and sort of what you think the long term effects of the Wellness Committee will have for attorneys in new Jersey. 1s Yeah. So that committee is really just a beautiful thing to behold. 1s For the chief to form it for Justice Solomon. To chair it, for judge Grant, the head of our courts to to be on it and so passionately so. 1s But therein lies the challenge, right? So what are our action items? And you know, I think we've seen one fabulous action item already come to fruition. 1s And that is this September. So two months ago now. Every assignment judge across the state in their September addresses with their county. Their vicinities spoke about mental health and attorney wellness. And I've been doing this now close to 30 years, I guess, I don't know, a long time. I've been to a lot of bar meetings. I've been to a lot of September bar meetings, new court year meetings. I have never heard an assignment judge address lawyers about their wellness and the feedback. I don't know if you got it down by you, Melissa, but the feedback that I got by so many across the state who had attended a September bar event and had their their assignment judge speak to them about attorney wellness and really for five, ten, 15 minutes talking about it. 1s Was meaningful. It mattered. And that's. That's an easy ask. Did you did you get that feedback? I did, I did, and I do have to give a shout out to our assignment judge, the Honorable Michael Bailey, because he's also on the Wellness Committee. And he. He's really proud of the fact that he actually threw it out before the state of the judiciary and said, I think it would be a good idea if we address it. And so he's very proud of the fact that it was his idea of of having the administrative judges address it. And he spent a lot of time at our state of the judiciary. 1s And people were extremely grateful. And we did a follow up, professionalism, where he did a similar discussion of mental health. And just I think that there's almost a relief among lawyers that it's being discussed and that, you know, they can talk about it and know that their assignment, judge can they can go to their assignment judge or a judge to say, you know, I need for whatever's going on in their life, they can go and say, you know, right now. I have these extra burdens or concerns and I need help, and they know that they can go to their assignment. Judge now, because the assignment judge addressed the mental health at the state of the judiciary. But I agree with you. It's the first time. Usually it's about stats and backlog and numbers and the most dry, boring, you know, nothing that is trying to connect with the attorneys in your county, you know so well. Kudos to judge Lee. I know he's a co-chair of one of the committees. I think everything I've heard about him, he's so passionate about attorney health and wellness. We're really blessed that he is. And the fact that he brought that idea forward and really, I mean. 1s It's impacted 21 counties for the better, right? I think to judge Grant credit as well. He's an action guy. He's he wants to know what can this committee do. What are some action items. 2s So if anyone's watching this podcast or listening to it, please reach out to Melissa and give her some action items that we can take back to the Supreme Court. But. What our committee is focusing on and really what I'm trying to come up with and think about is, I think the most important thing for us to try to address is how do we. 1s Try to address the pace of this practice. The pace of this practice is not sustainable. Back in the early days. You know, how lawyers would practices. They would get a letter. Their secretary would open the letter stamp the letter. The lawyer would read the letter. The lawyer would send the letter to the client. Couple days later, the client would get it. They'd schedule a phone call, draft a letter back, you know. So responding to a letter could have been a 2 to 3 week endeavor. 1s You and I have been recording this podcast now for 23 minutes. We probably have 23 emails in our inbox in those 23 minutes, right? And I thought it was bad before the pandemic. My emails. And then 2s once we went to all virtual and emails, it just exploded. I can't even I, I can't even keep up with my emails. I never before had my staff check my emails. But I have to now because I get no one writes a letter, I get letters anymore. Very few probably. I do not get letters. I get all emails. I respond both ways. There are times that I say I want it on formal letterhead, but send it via email. But yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think I think exactly what you're saying is that there's this urgency of everything. Everything, because of the immediacy of. Attorneys and clients being able to contact us so easily, you know, and 1s I think it's like the demand that we are in a life of instant messaging, you know, Snapchats back like so a client thinks, I emailed you at 10:00, it's now 1:00, and you haven't responded to my extremely substantive, life altering email within three hours. And it's it's hard. So so that's those are the the cumulative blows that really impact I think a lawyer's health and wellness. But. So I think we have to come up with some concrete steps that we can go to the chief and go to judge Grant and say, how do we slow this pace down? And the only thing that I. Suggested so far, and he hasn't said no out of hand yet, I don't think. I'm not saying he's going to say yes, but there was a time back in the early days, not way before I practiced, that the court was closed, except for emergent matters in the month of August, and everybody really just treated August as a restful, recuperative month. That's when you vacationed. That's when you caught up on work and your office. And now the court stayed open for emergent matters. God forbid somebody kidnapped or something like that. But I don't know. So I'm hoping out of the committee we can present action items like that. Like how we can just calm the pace down. And give lawyers and judges even. I mean, think about how the judges must be feeling. Right. They are now on a prolonged period of time where they are understaffed. Overworked. We have so many businesses still on shut down of trials, civil trials and matrimonial trials just because we don't have enough bodies. So they've been doing triage. 2s For years now. So I just think collectively, we all just need a pause and a break and how we can build that into our court system, I think, is our challenge. And that's what we should be thinking about how we can do that and even the courts that are staffed. So, you know, I work in a business that is staffed with judges. We are not in a judge shortage, but we are in a court staff shortage. There is not enough court staff for all the judges to be on the bench. There are not enough court staffs for all the courtrooms to be opened. And so it's not just a judge shortage, it is also a staff shortage which has become an issue. And then there's the, you know, one of the topics we didn't really I mean, you know, that's I mean, right now I have people that are divorced, they don't even know their divorce because I can't get their final judgment back because there's not enough staff to send it to me. So can you imagine? You're divorced and you don't even know your divorce, right? I just had a client who had a case from 2020 or 2021. He was indicted in 2022. Last year. It was never uploaded. It was never scheduled. For arraignment. And it just got lost. I mean, it's a long time to be waiting for your case to be resolved, but what I was going to say is, the other issue is that most of the attorneys in new Jersey are solo or small, small practitioner, small law firms. Yeah. And, you know, I jokingly say, and I've said it at the Wellness committee meetings, you know, as a small firm, you know, I have two full time staff, I have an associate, I have a few part time staff, but I'm small and I just went from a solo to having an associate. My biggest struggle is my calendar, and it's not even in-person court dates. It's handling all the municipal court hearings, and they're all virtual. And you think it would make it easier, but it's harder to get continuances. It's harder to say I can't appear because I have other court dates. And then we just went through a whole a whole scheduling issue of I can't be in Cape May at nine Atlantic at 1130 and have a 10:00 or 1030 virtual, because they won't let me do it without. I never go on my camera, but just having them hear me, I have a pretty distinct voice. The judges know it's me. And they're like, you got to put your camera on. And I say, I can't. And then like, we can't hear your case. And I'm like, well, I can't. I got to get to the other courtroom. And you didn't grant my continuance and that level of stress. You know, you talk about the emails, but it's also the court appearances and being in multiple courtrooms and trying to juggle it all. 2s You know, they are allowing zoom. I mean, that was one thing. As president, I worked with the municipal court folks. They were adamant about that. They want at least the first appearances to be by zoom, because some counties were not allowing zoom anymore. And the court judge, Grant and the chief came down and said, for sure, all first appearances will be by zoom. I mean, can you imagine if you have to physically be present? I mean, that's that would really be crazy. So I'm glad. I mean, I know scheduling is the bane of all of our existence for sure, 2s but I'm just. 1s Great. Well, first, when I say that you feel a lot of gratitude that you're busy. So let me just say that because the alternative is not good. So there's gratitude there. There's gratitude to be able to have the flexibility to practice virtually. Still in a lot of appearances, thank goodness that's a blessing to clients spending less money. It's less of a burden on attorneys schlepping to places they need not be. But even taking in all those blessings into consideration, it's still bear managing calendars for sure. Yeah, it's it's hard when you feel like you're either, you know, disappointing a client or disappointing the court. And sometimes with the court, it's, you know, and I don't know, I don't think you do handle a lot of municipal court cases, but I just do divorce and family. That's it. Right. So I sort of laugh sometimes when I have very serious felony cases, you know, homicides and, you know, that's going to be slaughters will be a no no, I'm going to no it's not. But what I was going to say those cases I can get continuances on very easily. I can say to the court, I have a quarter in municipal court. It's like very difficult to to get a postponement. And so I agree with you. Knock on wood, it's a blessing. I'm busy. It's a blessing that you know that I can appear virtually because it does help with being able to stack the calendar. But it's also hard when I say, well, I, I have a Superior Court case here and a Superior Court case here, I can't do it that day. And they say you have to you have to appear. You know, it's a harder courtroom. Even when I handle restraining orders, I can get continuances more easily than municipal courts. So that's the that's the hard thing I've talked to about it. Yeah. I mean, that to me is a bench bar issue because that is really not contributing to a healthy attorney, bench bar relationship or attorney health. I mean, that's foolish. It is. And that and that's what I tried to say is that there needs to be that same. 1s I know everyone you know. I know the judges on every level have have, you know, dates of when they want matters resolved and they feel those pressures. And I understand that there's those pressures, but there's also the reality that you can't be in three different places at the same time. Right. And that's sort of the business of the small law firm, especially if you do criminal defense and municipal court. So it is the juggling act. Yeah. So talking about action items, I know that there's discussions of going to the law schools as well as creating class or wellness programs. 1s Are there any specific programs that you think are essential in in creating or establishing? 2s Look, I think 1s showcasing attorneys that have lived through something stressful or not, you know, but letting them tell their story of how they manage it, what their 1s secret to successes. I mean, everybody has something that we're going through, but how we manage it can vary from person to person. So I think that's important. The well-being section of the State Bar, we're putting together a program on Presidents Day in February of this year, and I'm really excited for it. And it's really just lessons about. What picked you up when you fell apart and. 1s I'm looking forward to people being authentic and honest about acknowledging that they've fallen apart, because I think we all have. I think we've all had that moment where we feel like we're on Candid Camera and, you know, life's a joke. Moments like, how am I possibly going to manage all of this? And I think people will all have different things as to what they do. 1s You know, to put the pieces back together. Well, whether it just be mindfulness exercises, whether it be playing pickleball, whether it be lunch with friends, whatever that is. If we can leave there with some tips 1s on what our colleagues are doing, I think that's helpful. I was at a seminar today during lunch, a meditation seminar. I'm not. I've never really meditated. I went to meditate. I really help. I'm not good at it because I was trying. And you know, the lady was very. She was great, but. 1s I also I've tried yoga. I'm not good at yoga because, you know, you're just supposed to be still and quiet. And when I'm still in quiet, I just keep going through my to do list and I'd rather just get to my to do list. Then just be still and quiet. So it's hard. Yeah, but the but the meditation. So maybe meditation is not for me or yoga, but it doesn't mean that's not for other people. Or maybe I just need to get better at meditation and yoga, but there were parts where, you know, she just was talking to us about calming down, and she actually had us focus on our nostrils. 1s And she said, just focus on your nostrils and breathe in and breathe out. And I was like, this is freaking stupid. But. As I did it, and I started focusing on my nostrils and just started breathing in and breathe out. And we only have to do it for like a minute. Yeah, literally. That's really the key is starting with like a minute to three minutes to I can't do meditation either, or yoga because I can't get my mind to stop when I'm doing meditation and yoga. I have found that breathing. 1s Um, I have like a very small book of different breathing exercises. Breathing to help get you more energy is one. Breathing to help you calm your nerves, breathing to help you fall asleep. And they're very short breathing techniques. So that's new for me. And then I run. That's a great but I yeah, but then I run. And like when I run, I can eventually get my mind to stop thinking. And then all of a sudden it's, that's when I have the most clarity is during my runs. And I'm not, but I'm moving. And so I definitely get the meditation in yoga, it's too almost slow for my mind. Um, and but I do think it's finding what works for you, whether it's pickleball or golfing or running or walking. I know that we're talking here in Atlantic County of doing events in this in the upcoming year 1s with body movement and with under the mental health and wellbeing. And so we do we do. Every other year we have an event with the Atlantic City Marathon series, and they do A5K race in June to kick off the summer. And we're going to do that again this year and have a few discussions. We've discussed doing yoga or breathing or meditation as well, and that's what we're trying to do down here to implement it, 1s which I think is essential. But I do really think your point about going back to one of the things that you said about the immediacy of responding to our clients, I think that's probably the highest level of stress, you know, and if you can figure out a way to. 2s To be able to slow that down. You know, I would say I think that's probably going to help many lawyers. Well, I think that's our challenge. I think that is and I think we need the courts to build in some days of, of respite for us. 2s But. 1s I think that's that's our biggest challenge, I think. To your earlier question about. 1s Seminars. I mean, I think just continuing the dialogue and talking about it, because that's what's building momentum is people really, you know, this is resonating, talking to people about it. And and it's resonating from the highest places in the court. And when, when it matters to them. And they form committees and they're interested in it, that's really when change can be effectuated. So if all 21 counties, if their local committees are talking to their judges and making it a priority and continue to shine a light on it. 2s You know, any seminar on it? Just just focus on it. And. 1s It's such a broad topic, just as we just talked about. You and I are not. 1s You. I'm going to be yoga, gym rats or meditation people, but we're going to work our stuff out in the athletic field, which is how we grew up. Right? That's how we're going to, you know, doing some type of form of athletic endeavor. So but let's just keeping it on the radar and letting people know there's no right or wrong way to do it. I also think as far as colleagues and members of the bar, we have to really stay steadfast to the mission of being kind and gentle to each other. There is nothing worse in in a case than when your adversary is a jerk, 1s and you can have a jerk for a client and figure that out, because you can neutralize that with a good adversary or a good mediator or something else. But when you have a jerk adversary and you're stuck with them throughout. So I think we have to make a commitment as a bar to do better. And I think we'd have. I mean, I think, you know, 99% of us are pretty, are really good. But when you have to deal with that 1%, it's brutal. Yeah. Yes, I agree with you. And I'm always wondering why why it doesn't endear yourself to anyone. You know, I think, you know, when someone is coming off as. You say a jerk? I just say nasty or mean or overly aggressive. You know, even the judges in the courtroom kind of are like, what is going on here, you know? 1s Yeah. So I have staff. My staff is pretty young. They're both recent college grads, and every once in a while they'll say, this attorney called. And they were, like screaming at us. And I think, oh my goodness, you know. 1s It just is a shame when it happens. Disgusting. That's disgusting. Right? Mean it's contrary to our profession. We can be adversaries and still 1s be professional and cordial. And just because you're my adversary in one case, you know, doesn't mean that we have to be adversarial in in everything, you know. I try, I try to not use the word adversary. I try to use the word colleague with them because I, you know, I feel like adversary already sets this up for some acrimonious relationship. So if we call each other colleagues, you know, let's let's set the stage a little bit different. And one of the just another example of that one court rule change that we're trying to advocate to the Supreme Court, at least in the family part, is we don't want to call clients any more plaintiffs or defendants. Right. I can understand that. It's like that sets the stage already. As with an adversarial tone, there's no real plaintiff or defendant in a divorce, and it doesn't matter who filed for it doesn't. You're not going to get any more. But you. Yeah, but you know that there are clients that say, I want to file first because I don't want to be listed as the defendant. Right, right. Yeah. And it just that kind of thinking doesn't lend itself to an amicable, efficient. 1s Divorce or breakup of a relationship. So words matter. And if we can change and eliminate plaintiff and defendant in some cases or adversary and just. 1s Hopefully that just helps set the stage for for a better outcome. But it's so funny. I just said to someone this week, words matter. You know when you when you say certain things a certain way, you know what you're conveying and so much more than you know the message. So words matter. And on a on a side note, I always say if it comes up, I had the most amicable divorce. Very amicable. My kid's dad spends every holiday with us, with the kids. And. But when we were filing, when we were moving forward, I was like, I want to be the plaintiff. I do not want to be the defendant. And it's so I agree that it sounds, you know, they're really not necessary to refer to the parties because that's what they are. They were a married couple who are getting divorced. That's it. Yeah. And if we can make little changes like that throughout the system, cumulatively, I think it will just lead to a much better process for everybody involved. And, you know, when the process is easier and more civil and more amicable, attorney health and wellness improves as well. I agree, I agree so well said 1s and thank you so much for coming. I think you know that I always say this. My office philosophy is work hard and be nice. Those are the two most important things. And even when our clients call and they're stressed because of what they're dealing with, I say to my staff, you can let them vent, you can listen to them. And we are kind and we are nice to them. And if you need to finish up the phone call and put it down and then walk into my office and like, just let it all out of the frustration you're feeling. 1s We are all good. It is all a safe zone. But to the clients and to opposing counsel, we are kind as can be. And we have a sign in our kitchen and it's, you know, a famous saying, but nobody people don't remember what you did or said, they remember how you made them feel. And so think about I'm divorced as well. And 1s I remember those moments of agony and anguish and crying so hard my nose would bleed on my bed. And there were places that I was at. Like my office manager, for example, has a house in the Poconos, and I was at her house one of those weekends. I will not go to her house and be in her base. I physically cannot go there because I felt so bad being there. And so I think it's important for the lawyers and our staff and our team members really to remember clients aren't there listening to what we're saying, but what's more important is how are we making them feel? On the other end of that phone call, are they feeling heard 1s even if they're freaking out? You know, just not getting the sandbox with them? Just take the information, try to reassure them the best that you can, and just make them feel good until they can get on the phone with you and you can go through the legal ramifications with them. It's important. Yes. So let me thank you again for coming. I am going to list and think about very actionable items and my next wellness committee. 1s Now I'm going to reach out to my bar to. I love what we're doing at the state level, but 1s where I work and reside, Atlantic County, 1s there not a lot of members that go consistently up to participate in the new Jersey state. 1s We're members, but it is really far, you know, you know, when I go, I'm like, oh my goodness. You know, on a good day, it's a little less than two hours, but it's a lot of miles. Yes. Each way. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I love zoom though because we can stay connected. But think about it at your grassroots level. That's the challenge. Challenge your colleagues. Right now we have an audience. We have the Supreme Court committee. They are asking us how can we improve the profession? Let's give them some action items, some concrete, 1s whether it be a rule change, what can we ask of them to help improve the profession? 1s Hopefully we have a lot of lawyers listening right now, and they'll either reach out to you or to me and let us know what they're really thinking. I love the August off, but in my mind I'm like, that's a great start. And yet there's 11 more months of stress, right? Like, yeah. So but hopefully, hopefully you'll be able to. You've done so much. So I have confidence of that. August. The fact that it wasn't a hard no I have I have faith in you. I'll do my best. We'll try. 1s Thank you and thank you. You're always welcome on the mighty Murph. No thank you. 1s We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Mighty Murph Podcast. This podcast is not a source of legal advice. No two legal cases are the same. Contact an attorney if you require legal assistance.