Veterans Diversionary Programs in NJ with Thomas Roughneen

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Welcome Tom to the Mighty MERP podcast. I look forward to us talking today about the Veterans Divergent Program as well as the amazing CLE that we coordinated together. But before we jump in into the Veterans Divergent Program, I was hoping if you could introduce yourself and maybe give a little origin story of where you began and where you are now.

It goes back to 1988, I joined the New Jersey Army National Guard and listed as a private. Then after a different series of positions, I ended up as a JAG lawyer. And then while I was serving as a JAG lawyer, ended up in the New Jersey Army National Guard after a number of assignments. I worked in the Physical Disability Agency office in an Army assignment. My last Army assignment.

was with the physical disability agency for military guys who were injured mentally or physically. And so it was clear that reserve and guard military personnel were not really getting fair shake. And I felt like I was being called to open up a law firm which ran counter to everything I wanted to do or thought I should do in life. Happened to be unemployed time after going to Germany on a very exciting tour.

And then hung out a shingle and it's 10 years that we'll be celebrating the same weekend as the CLE. So we'll try to get some of the band back together for Saturday night at the formal that they're having at the Atlantic City Sheraton. And then Friday I get to see you and the gang. Yeah. And so we like jumped right in. So I'm going to now backtrack. How long were you in the military for? About 30 years.

Wow. Okay. And you and I connected recently. And as you know, I'm president of the Atlantic County Bar Association. And Atlantic County has a thriving Veterans Diversionary Program, very supported by our presiding judge, Judge Delorey. And he connected us and we

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are having a CLE on the Veterans Diversionary Program in New Jersey. And it's really on Veterans wellness and health. It's beyond just the diversionary program. And we're doing that on March 8th, which is a Friday. And then on Saturday, there is an event that is a National Guard event, correct?

So we have a whole weekend focused on military.

and our veterans.

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I don't know. I mean, I think you could twist my arm. I think I could probably get there. I think I admit you to that. It should be fun. I mean, we're having a bunch of the staff over the years. Dr. Willard is sticking around. I'm not really sure who will be there, but a bunch of National Guard people who I know over the years will be there anyway. And they're doing the event. They keep it at cost. So it's not going to be the best food or...

I don't even think it's an open bar, but it's a decent opportunity to get my team together because we're all virtual. I left New Jersey, as you know. So let me ask you, you said that 10 years ago you started your law firm and it really wasn't what you were expecting. What type of law were you expecting to do when you left JAG or the military?

Uh, the, the resume gets very disjointed because while you're holding a job. So when I was an Essex County prosecutor, for example, assistant prosecutor, I got mobilized, um, to a gig in California, which immediately became a new set of orders to Fort Bragg and then Romania and then Iraq. So I spent over two years out of Essex County prosecutor's office.

on leave, military leave. And so when I took the Germany assignment, I had left a private practice with a fellow up in Essex County.

And so that ended up being two years, a year at Fort Dix and a year in Germany. And so I thought I was coming back to a new government job, but it didn't work out. So I had to figure out what comes next when you're, I guess, at 43 or so, when obviously the firm's 10 years old, so the math's not too hard. And so.

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I thought I was going to be a criminal defense lawyer primarily, and it turns out there's a really big market for military advocacy for disability, men and women who get hurt while on duty, and then those who get hurt on duty but discharged without the appropriate benefits.

want to go back and revisit it. And there's an Army Board of Corrections and a Board of Corrections for Naval Records and the Air Force has a Board of Corrections. So you can go back and ask these administrative agencies to correct the record. So when you opened up the law firm 10 years ago, was it handling more, was it handling criminal matters as well as military and then just morphed into the military or did you just from the start really end up representing veterans?

Yeah, the having been a prosecutor for nine years, I expected that, you know, I knew that criminal law was pretty competitive. I wasn't really setting out to be a criminal defense lawyer. I wasn't turning away those cases, but I don't think I had a misconception that it was going to be a difficult challenge in Union County, Essex County, to carve out a criminal law practice. And so the real, you know, motivation.

was to serve military and veterans. I don't think it was, there was no military diversion law, and I was able to play a part in that as in the Bar Association. So credit to them, not to me, without the Bar Association and the president at the time, Bob Hiller, there wouldn't be a diversion law in my opinion. But I happened to be the chairman of the military law veteran affairs section at that time. I'm going to try and get you to join that section too, Melissa.

And they did, you know, we just have to run the right place at the right time and spent a lot of time working on it, not paid, but, you know, a bit of a legacy, I suppose, is being able to say I played a part in getting that law passed. And, you know, we went to Trenton a couple of times, certainly learned a lot about the process. So I don't, I forget what your exact question was. I think my question was more about the law firm, um, then, you know, whether the focus of the firm was all.

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always with military and veterans. But that does springboard into your involvement in the State Bar Association and the Veterans Diversionary Program statute that was enacted. Yeah, so I'm thinking a life of its own. Joining the Bar Association was not something in the plan, but I probably would have not thought to do that. But they had a military law section.

You know, I joined that and orchestrated getting in the, you know, the line of succession, just kind of like the county bar to take the chairmanship and.

That has become a, I just, as you know, the Bar Association, they have a very powerful voice in Trenton. They do. You know, I never got involved too much in the county bar associations, but I think the county bar associations are really key, Melissa, to the future of the diversion law. I think the state bar is too, as they say in the military, it's echelons above reality. And I think the county bar with...

people like you and others who are in the trenches, who are mixing it up with the assignment judge and the presiding criminal judge in the various vicinages. I think that's where we have not been effective. And if Judge Delorey and the work you're doing and the VA Justice Outreach Liaison is doing is going to be effective across the state.

it's going to take that type of work. So I think we can hold the counties and vicinages accountable with the county bar associations more in the future than we have in the past. So that's really interesting because, you know, we have this Veterans Diversionary Program and it's, you know, it's in the 2C Criminal Statute Book and, you know, it's laid out, it is a county prosecutors program.

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not considered a judiciary program. And you know all the counties Veterans Diversionary Program is slightly different. If you go to each of the counties websites, they each handle it slightly differently. And there's a part of me that I think from a county that has a very strong program that we can definitely be used as a

model for other counties to replicate. But I also, there is a part of me that thinks that there needs to be something more within this, done with the state as a whole so that the program is treated more like PTI, where it shouldn't matter what county you're in, whether you're accepted or not accepted, or whether you're being supervised well, or whether there is a judge.

of the program or one of the few counties that has a judge that meets with the veterans that are in the program every month to do a status and see how these veterans are doing on the program.

Well, the legislature passed and Christie signed in 2016, and I think it went effective in 2017. I think you're right. It does incorporate more than 2C. It does have the National Guard, Department of Military and Veterans Affairs, who has a responsibility. And they're supposed to train.

Oh my God, I can't think of what it's called, but mentors. They're supposed to do this. It actually contemplates a mentor and I don't know how effective Atlantic County is doing with that, but this, the department of military and veteran affairs has a responsibility and Dave Colley, who's a former Huntington County assistant prosecutor and a former Naval officer, and he currently works in Demava. He has these trainings for mentors. I just don't know how effective the, without, you're correct. Without the state.

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using a stick on the various counties. I don't think that the counties, the county prosecutors in particular, are doing a good job of recruiting, retaining, training mentors. And I think the mentors are very important. Right. And we're fortunate because our prosecutor's office has always supported this program and they've been, you know, very involved. Most of the

are either retired or still in the military themselves. And so, that's one of the reasons why I think Atlanta County has all of those, all of it in place, including mentors, and they use their discretion.

you know, the statute says if you have a second degree, if you have a violent offense, and they look at the cases individually. So they are really good about trying to work with veterans and getting them in the program. But I ask it from the state level first, because I'm sure you know this, that most states have a specialty court for our veterans, that it is run from the court. You know, New York has it, I believe Pennsylvania has it.

So I think it's great what we have for the counties that implement it, but I don't know. I mean, you do work with more military than I do and I only work in South Jersey. So I guess my two questions are sort of, why don't we have that specialty court for our veterans? And then, what counties, I mean, is it

Is it a strong program in North Jersey or Central Jersey? Cause I, you know, I only go up to like, I do all of South Jersey, but I don't really go past Ocean when I'm driving North. In Middlesex County and their first assistant, Chris Kubreit are extraordinary. So they're doing a good job. I'm hoping that Chris Kubreit will come to the CLE. I'm gonna talk to him over the-

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Hopefully he's like me and he doesn't care about NFL football. So he, I think works all the time and he likes to call my office on a Sunday and I don't work on Sunday typically until nighttime when the kids are awake. So, you know, of, of the counties in Northern New Jersey, the only one that I know of and it's not really Northern New Jersey is Middlesex that has a.

established credible veteran diversion program. I know Pasek had a good one because they had a lieutenant colonel named Jorge Morales who has since retired and he, I don't know what type of system he left in place, but right if you call Pasek County you'd get Jorge Morales who's a lieutenant colonel. And so, you know, unfortunately what's happening, Melissa, is like in...

In the county, you have a Lieutenant Colonel, John Flammer, who is in the United States Army Reserve as a Jaguar. You have a retired Navy Reserve Judge Advocate who's the presiding judge. That makes it very easy. But if you don't have that, you can't really excuse those counties for not doing anything. I know Union County, they're not doing anything. I would bet that they haven't put a single case into veteran diversion. I also wanted to point out, you mentioned about...

the various states and what type of programs they have. So a bit sheepish to tell you and admit this, but so now we have, I'm admitted in New Jersey, we have an office in New Brunswick, but I opened up a new office and I live in Huntsville, Alabama and don't judge me on that to anyone who catches up with their program. So it's a thriving city, it's the home of NASA, more rocket scientists here than anywhere on the planet.

But their diversion program is very moderate, right? And this is a military state. And even the veteran diversion statute in New Jersey, it really specifies nonviolent crimes, third degree, fourth degree, and disorderly persons and petty disorderly persons. And the prosecutors really have discretion to do whatever the hell they want. But technically someone who gets a diversion.

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with a second degree or a violent crime or domestic violence, they're technically not using the veteran diversion program. And so prosecutors in New Jersey have the ability and they use PTI instead, I think. And what, you know, what the states are doing, I mean, New York, New Jersey was late to the game. I think we were the 41st state to maybe more 42nd, 43rd to pass a diversion statute for military and more of your expertise will be to see if that

was a precedent for a mental health quote unquote court. The administrative office of the courts was very opposed to and is still opposed to specialty courts. And so Judge Grant has made it very clear that veteran diversion is not a court. He also had made it very clear that he thinks any judge can handle any type of case on any given day.

beg to differ, but that's his position and he's in charge. So that's the way it is. But as you can see in Atlantic, without somebody who knows what they're doing, like Judge Deluri, the program's going to probably languish.

Right, and I know I've been in other counties where I've applied clients to Veterans Diversionary Program. And... I'm sorry.

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in hindsight it was a strange just think of the except the prosecutor accepted it the judge accepted it and then when i asked my client you know what he ended up doing for the veterans diversionary program uh... it really was nothing there was no support there was no mentors there was no meeting there is it was less than probation in some ways he was fortunate that he was able to complete the time without

need for a lot of services but that's not really true with you know many of our veterans you know they need the reason why they're in the criminal justice system is partly because of the mental health issues trauma issues and you know prior to their service they were law-abiding individuals right so usually they're in the criminal justice system because they need some sort of assistance or help

Exactly, and the rationale behind the statute is, this is more bean counting than you or I truly care about, but the national organization who runs this is under the umbrella of National Association of Drug Court Professionals. They run seminars twice a year, national conventions for that monstrous lobby, the drug court people. And underneath them is this Justice for Vets.

but I think they renamed it now, All Rise. And what they'll tell you is that if veterans are struggling financially, they're in Medicaid, which is a county-run program, and counties love to get people out of Medicaid using the VA. So it's a cost-saving argument that you can use at the county level. And right, the veterans are supposed to be linked up with this monstrosity of a bureaucracy and healthcare agency of the VA. And so hopefully,

If they need it, they're benefiting from that as well.

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So recovered court is a specialty court, correct?

you'd have to tell me more about that. Well, drug court, what was formerly known as drug court now is named recovery court in New Jersey. I guess it's in the court rules. So they got through, you know, so that's a lot. I mean, that's a, I mean, so going back, that was implemented when I was a young assistant prosecutor. So, you know, it's statutory.

like the veteran diversion law is, it's in the rule, I don't think veterans get in the rule book, have, they're not in the court rules yet, they probably should be. They're not, I don't, I don't believe. Yeah, no, I think they are. But they are in the 2C book, which is the criminal code for New Jersey. Um. Just interesting to see how mental health court legislation, which if it passes and gets signed, helps or not the veteran diversion.

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Right. I know that mental health court is in the pipeline, but is it looked at as a specialty court or is it looked at as... I mean, my understanding was it was going to be parallel or similar to recovery court, formerly known as drug court. Yeah. I think it appears, because I've heard the word court attached to it, that that's the moniker that's being used.

how that got past Judge Grant, I don't know, but it's fine with me. And I think that can only help. It's another tool for lawyers representing veterans. So, you know, you have this mental health court option. Now you can present your veteran information in a more systemized way. So just another option for me, I think. No, I...

I think that most people who handle criminal law matters, whether you're working as a prosecutor or defense attorney, involved in probation, you're in the court system, or you're a judge, you know that most clients that are in the system have either some sort of mental health issue, including drug or alcohol issues, and they need assistance.

in order not to come back into the system. I mean, you know, very few people, contrary to what we see on Law and Order or CSI or, you know, they're not criminal masterminds. They're just individuals struggling. Well, and so it would be terrible not to say that the statistics on these veteran diversion programs, the recidivism rates are negligible. And that's a credit, not only to...

this system, but it's this credit to the people who are involved that this is aberridden for them and hopefully most of them are coming from a solid job background and they have a job and they have a family and they have a support network and so this, you know, exception and maybe linking them up, you know, it's unfortunate, but a lot of the veterans are not historically using

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in any way, the VA. So not only is there, there's two parts to the VA, as you know, there's the VHA, which is the healthcare hospital system clinics. And then there's the VBA, which is coughing up all kinds of money to veterans who have service-connected disabilities. So that's part of what our law firm does too. But these veterans who are clearly injured mentally and or physically, and they haven't ever.

file the claim and they think that's for people who are really seriously injured and not for them. And so we oftentimes are helping them file their initial claim. We can't get paid for that. We just point them in the right direction. So every county, I don't know if your VSO at the county level is very active, but every county usually has a bureaucrat on payroll and their job is to assist veterans with their benefits and they should be helping to file claims and handling appeals. So that's part of what we do as well.

Yeah, I usually have my iPad out while I'm recording, which I'm recording on my computer, and then I would have typed that up to see who it was, but I did not do that. But you started with the idea that VDP Veterans Diversionary Programs are really successful and with lower recidivism.

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vdp and the podcast and he said that uh... graduation rate you know is you know extraordinarily high in atlanta county of veterans who have participated in the vdp and they didn't want to write that i didn't write the number down but i i'm pretty sure that he said it's over ninety percent i don't want to give the exact number but that it was you know most people who do the program are successful through the program

And they are provided with mentors as well. That's the number. It's 90% across the board. Or better, very, very sometimes even the low single digits of repeating offenses. Right. So let's talk about this continued legal education course that we are offering at the Atlantic County

uh... criminal courthouse on i'd always when i'm checking the date of the had it wrong one time but it's friday march eight and uh... it coincides with the national guard association of new jersey convention which is in atlantic city so uh... your brilliance of coordinating it all in the same weekend well about brilliance it's just happened to be with your help uh...

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knowledge on the ground and contacts and Judge Delorey and getting into the courthouse, which you know, the Bar Association at the state level was like, how much are we going to pay in the county community college? We wanted $5,000. So, you know, I think you get the credit for finding your suggesting courthouse. And so that was a huge relief and a way to make it happen. It should be fun. And obviously, I had a happy hour at the time.

tavern we're trying to get the time tavern i haven't put the announcement out yet uh... we're still coordinating but uh... it is three c le credits for attorneys and i'm really excited cuz we put together two separate almost separate panels are going to be back to back uh... and i know you're moderating the first one i'm moderating the second one i do want to talk a little bit about your uh... panel

Dr. Lillard's case, five, almost six decades of experience with veterans, with mental health issues. So Dr. Which is older than both of us, I just wanna add. He's had more experience than. Yeah, almost combined. So, Doc Lillard is gonna come up from Savannah, Georgia. So we're working on his logistics. He's gonna fly in on Thursday. So, hopefully we'll have.

I've never met him. He's done countless expert reports for our clients to get benefits. And sometimes they are entitled to benefits and need a report from him and he can validate their diagnosis. And sometimes he doesn't have a diagnosis for them and that's good too. And so he likes working with us because I don't put any pressure on him to change his reports. If he doesn't, he's as good an advocate for a veteran as anybody or I could ever be.

And so if he doesn't find reason to diagnose somebody, I'm certainly not going to question that because he's very understanding and compassionate. So he's going to come up and he's really the, the highlight of the weekend. I've worked with him for 10 years. We have zoom conferences with him regularly. I've only seen them on a screen. So he was going to come up with his wife, but it looks like he's going to come on his own. He's in his eighties now, but he's very vibrant. And then, so he'll speak.

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you know i just i'll share uh... with you with this i don't interrupt but i don't think you said that he's a vietnam veteran and norah surgeon and the psychiatrist so i might just like to throw out his background but sorry for interrupting no interruption at all he uh... and then uh...

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I wanted to just share about Dr. Cynthia Lischek, who's very sharp in her own right. And so she worked three years at the New Jersey Army National Guard and Air Guard. And she was the contractor who served the general and the patients who were in the guard. So when, when the guard was regularly deploying on a constant continual basis, they had her on the, on the, on the staff.

And so that gig ran out and so she has maintained and through that time she had her own practice. So I think she's writing a book and she'll probably tell us about that. And, uh, when I'm going to have them, you know, speak about, I was actually at the bets for justice conference one year. It was in Maryland and there was just a draw dropping jaw dropping PowerPoint slide presentation by a VA doctor on something called adverse childhood experience, which was a VA commissioned study after Vietnam.

And there's always this question as to why can men and women be subject to the same combat environment? And some of them thrive when they leave, but some of them don't. And so just one of those moments in your life you never forget, but I was standing along the back wall and mesmerized by this. But the adverse childhood experience relates that in very measurable.

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easy categorized statistics, those who have been subject to child abuse or witnessed domestic violence,

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in great, great numbers are the ones who are going to suffer mental health effects, ill effects from combat. And so I'm going to ask the two doctors to really, you know, maybe use that as the basis of their discussion with the group, because I think it's just really, I don't know, it's chilling to me, right? Why these men and women who have already had trauma,

It's like concussions, right? If you've had a concussion, the next one will have much more severe effects. And so if you have mental health trauma or stress, PTSD or you've had depression, those future traumatic events are gonna have a much harsher impact. So that's what I hope to do with those two. Okay. And then we do have a...

I like to call him a surprise guest. He's not really a surprise, but, uh, you know, we asked him not to come. Um, I've asked him not to come. Cause as you know, I think we were remiss here. We have, uh, maybe justice Michael Noriega's first ever public speaking event. Noriega justice. Noriega was recently appointed to the Supreme court after being in private practice and hustling like you and me more like you and me than, you know, he was my early mentor.

When I started 10 years ago, he's of Peruvian descent and I had a great lunch with him in year one, eating ceviche at a restaurant name I'm going to forget, but it's out of business these days. And so, you know, a real down in the trenches public defender, you'll love that. And Essex County, who then went into private practice with Senator Bramnick.

Justice Noriega has graciously agreed to come to May's Landing Courthouse and that's got to have the judiciary excited. So your assignment judge is coming and we'll introduce Justice Noriega. So, for me, that's, it gets better and better, right? It does. And, you know, it's always nice when, I always say little South Jersey, little Alunta County is a...

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you know, remember that we're here and that we're having, I think, probably a pretty monumental CLE that we're organizing. And, you know, as somebody who's, you know, obviously very involved in the Bar Association and have been for years, I'm very excited to be part of the CLE and to be able to have the panel that we're having talk. I look forward to seeing all of you.

President there too. It's our next president. I know, I think Tim's gonna be there. I think he's gonna make it. Don't you?

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We'll see. I haven't talked to him, but you probably know better than I do these days, but you're a president. So you presidents talk to one another, you know, so you should pick up your phone and just chat them up. Chat them up, give them a call. And then for the second portion of the CLE, we have Judge DeLorey, who, as I said, is the presiding judge of Atlantic County Criminal Court. He's a retired captain of the Navy and a JAG officer.

and um... you know he's very committed to veterans and the veterans diversionary program and you mentioned john flammer who is at the prosecutor's office and i have to go look at my notes did you say he's a lieutenant colonel

and one of the nicest people in the world so generally uh... and i'm sure there will be a lot of people from the prosecutor's office and as i said atlanta county prosecutor's office from the beginning has been all in on this program uh... and then we have jake sanders who works for uh... the viet who is also extremely involved and works with our veterans that are in the vdb program so i think that it'll in seats melissa got filled the place

Gotta make an event. Passes and seats. Well, you know, I know I'm... Prosecutor's office, they got a lot of people. If they force them to come, that'll fill half the place. No standing room only. That's the goal. Nothing less. Well, I'm promoting it down here. I'm promoting it down here. Hopefully, you know, throughout the state, we'll get ripples of excitement and, you know...

I guess I would say, you know, the attorneys that you know that are military, let me know. I'll start shooting emails to them too and have them, you know, anyone coming to the National Guard convention that's there this week, that weekend. Hopefully we will have people from all over the state because I think we've both talked about the fact that this program is a program that...

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should be strong in all counties that we have in New Jersey. And it would be nice for the counties that might not have a strong program to see what we've done here to be able to, you know, mirror it in the future. Yeah, and hopefully what I'm gonna do.

turn this to my priority list is when we were working to get the law passed in the first place, we certainly made outreach to the first assistance and the prosecutor. So I have all those addresses in a spreadsheet. So we're going to mail merge and hit all those first assistants to see if we can't entice them to come down on a Friday afternoon. What the hell else are they doing? It's Atlanta City. There's stuff to do after.

You know, if we were any good, we would have had the prosecutors have a monthly meeting. Maybe it's not too late to have them meet and, oof, we've got to work on that. If they haven't had their... Well, we still... It's still a month away, so we might still be in on it. And then, as you mentioned, we are organizing an event afterwards, so anyone who does travel, they'll not only get three CLEs, but an opportunity to network.

uh, with, uh, attorneys throughout the state and, uh, work. Play here and this may work. Maybe Atlanta County has the prosecutors meeting in March. Wouldn't that be fun? Uh, well, I will reach out to the, uh, prosecutor and the first assistant to see if, uh, they will, uh, share it, discuss it. Um, if they want anyone, uh, the, let me think, president.

The vice president of the Bar Association is a prosecutor and I'm going to reach out to him and see if he will. He is a nice title of deputy, first assistant deputy, I believe. So I think he's the third in charge. So I will reach out to him and see if we can get that on the radar. How do you know when the prosecutor meeting is? Okay.

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There was a bunch of them who were really instrumental with this law. Joe Coronado was in Ocean County in 2017 and Sean Dalton was in Gloucester County in 2017. I actually reached out to both of them to see if they'll show up. They're both back in private practice now and prosecutor Dalton is at Cooper Levinson, that monster. I was going to say, I know Sean Dalton and we've worked together on cases sometimes, together and sometimes as adversaries.

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as well. I've reached out to him and I've reached out to Joe Coronado who's super and there's not too many other the suspects still in office from then. The rotation has been fast and furious. So anybody who I worked with, I've tried to reach back to them and have a little reunion. What the hell? It's been five, six weeks now. So I will definitely reach out to Sean and make a personal invitation.

As soon as we firm up, what we call it in Atlantic County, we do a monthly event. It's called the Bar at the Bar Event. It's a networking event. It's usually free to anyone who attends. If you want drinks, you have to buy your own drinks, but we usually have someone sponsor it. So there's some food and appetizers. And that's what we're doing on March 9th after the CLA.

We're tentatively hoping to be at the Tonne Tavern, which is in Atlanta City. And it's close to where the Sheraton is as well. So making it as convenient for everyone who's coming down and stay.

Thank you for all that and everything else. It's been very nice to get to know him, Melissa, and you got all kinds of things going on here with your Merp. What do we call this? The Merp Video Studio. Is that Melissa, the E stands for, and the R I got, that's the P. P's your maiden name? Marry name. Yeah, so it's Melissa, Elaine, Rosenblum, Pzetsner.

i don't use the best for anymore no longer married uh... which i think all my everyone knows that uh... not a secret but um... when i got married in my initials were mir i had friends and my sister just started calling me mark and it's not and so when you listen to this amazing podcast it is on the mighty mark is podcast because i'm so mighty

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I know, but I get to talk to interesting people like you and I get to talk about things that I like and I get to hear nice stories or interesting stories. So before we wrap up, I know you're not prepared for this question, but I do have a segment also called Crazy Courtroom Stories. So before we leave, can you...

think of one story that's a crazy courtroom story that, uh, like to tell and is entertaining. I've got a number of them, but the one that just immediately comes to mind is out of Essex County courthouse. My dad has been a foreman on numerous criminal juries. You wouldn't want my dad on our cases. You're in uni County and there's an Irishman and you're forming number one chair. You gotta get rid of them. Cause it could be my dad.

And so he was a foreman in Essex County at the time and the new courthouse, which has got 13 or so floors and he's a hanging jury and they convicted a guy for murder and so this story is legendary around Essex County, but none of my friends knew. In fact, Dennis Cleary's dad was the defense lawyer. If you know Dennis Cleary, who's a very accomplished defense lawyer and his father was Jack, Jack Cleary.

was the defense lawyer on this case. I get chills telling us because Jack is not dead, but he was legendary. Upon conviction, the defendant, now convicted, jumped out the window thinking they were on the first or second or third floor, I don't know, but they were really high up and he met his demise jumping out the window upon conviction with my dad as the foreman, so that was long before my time. So how about that? That is a crazy court.

court story and it wasn't even your court story. Now, so now I got to reach out to Dennis and refresh my recollection on the facts and I'll, I'll copy you and you can meet really one of Essex County's best criminal defense lawyers who is now partnered up with John McMahon, who was Essex County deputy public defender and whose father was a federal public defender and so they have their own little office, they share space.

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And you can get to know two of the greatest Irish drinking McGovern's pipes of Guinness guys that there are. When you make it up to Essex County one day, they'll show you the ropes. Well, I look forward to it. I am a, I don't know if you know this, I am a North Jersey born and raised. In Passaic County. Um, Is that where our girlfriend?

jerryland is from too yes so we both grew up in wane uh... suburb we uh... played soccer in middle school together and then she went to hills and i went to the alley uh... so uh... yes in north jersey person uh... you ended up down in south jersey right by the ocean not a bad place to be

Never had the pleasure, but we work with a guy, James Fitzpatrick, who's a Villanova PA lawyer. So, he's coming, I think, Friday for the CLE on the 8th. And his parents own a house, so he's going to make a little trip out of it. So, you get to meet James Fitzpatrick as well. Very nice man. Sounds like I'm meeting a lot of Irish. A lot of Irish. Yeah, we're kind of discriminatory in that way. If you can't hang at the bar, Melissa, we don't really have a lot of time for you. There you go.

I can't do it anymore, but I've earned my spurs so I can grandfather into the drinking club. But I've spent my time at Irish pubs. I've never drank with James Fitzpatrick and never met him in person either, so this will be an opportunity for us to all get together. In fact, I got to remind him that I want him to come on Saturday night and Friday, but hopefully they'll do both. He's got young kids. I understand. I hope I didn't bore you to tears, Melissa, but that's about it, I guess.

No, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your help in organizing the CLA and you know, I look forward to also meeting you in person, which I have not done either. We've only talked virtually and look forward to a great CLA and a great weekend. You got to get the general to show up now, Melissa. Let's work on that. Is that me or you though? Well, we got to figure it out. That's the best way to.

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entice her, our new two-star adjutant general, first ever female of the New Jersey Army and Air Force National Guard. Well, maybe I sense a formal letter, maybe a more personal letter. Yeah, I don't know why we're getting a cold shoulder. Maybe she just hasn't seen it yet. Maybe she's busy and hasn't seen it on her desk. Sometimes that happens. We got footage from one star to two stars, so she's been in the news.

She had to meet the governor and do all that. So we'll have to figure out whether you wanna follow up on the email I sent, or I'll send another email, or maybe try to reach out to her by phone. She's very nice. I have some ideas, but I'll follow up with you not on the Mighty Murr podcast on that. All right.

Have a great weekend, have a nice time, and I will see you soon. Thank you for the invite. Thank you.