The Journey of Judge Susan Maven

Speaker 2 (00:00.632)
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Speaker 3 (00:26.648)
This podcast is not a source of legal advice. No two legal cases are the same. Contact an attorney if you require legal assistance.

Welcome to the Mighty MERP podcast. I'm very excited today to talk to the Honorable Susan Maven, who was sworn into the New Jersey Superior Court as a judge in December of 2001. She is now retired as a judge, but she was the first and only African American woman to be appointed to the Superior Court in Atlantic and Cape May County until 2022.

She was assigned to the family division in Atlanta County and the criminal division in Atlantic and Cape May County, I should add. Judge Maven served in the appellate division from 2012 to 2016. And in 2016, Judge Maven returned to the family division where she presided over juvenile delinquency docket and other family court cases. And as I said, Judge Maven retired effective March 1st, 2022. And Judge Maven, thank you so much for coming on the Mighty Murr podcast to talk to me.

Ms. Rosenblum, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

You are welcome. And you can call me either Melissa or as my friends and close family call me MERP, which is my nickname. So I wanted to talk to you for a long time, which because you were sitting judge, I wasn't allowed to ask to you to join the podcast, but I'm so glad that you came on the show. Can you share a little bit about your origin story?

Speaker 1 (02:06.446)
where you were born, your family, prior to your legal career.

Certainly, I am born and raised in New York. I'm born and raised in Brentwood, Long Island, New York. I am the fourth of five children, my mom and dad, and we grew up in the town of Brentwood, which was predominantly, it was a mixed community where I lived. In the elementary, junior high, and high school I went, was predominantly white high schools, white educational system, only because the schools were developed by where you lived in the neighborhoods.

So for many years when I was growing up as a child, elementary and junior high, if there were any other black students in the school, would have been one of my siblings or a few other kids. It wasn't until I got to high school when certain of the junior highs came together that there were more numbers of African-American and Hispanic students that joined the population and what have you. But at any rate, growing up I was a, I suppose I was a bright student, I thought I was. I was precocious, I was...

loquacious as a young child and didn't hesitate to speak to adults like I was an adult. My parents would sort of cock their head and say, I wasn't being disrespectful, but it was just having conversations that people would say, are you really saying those types of things? You're a child. So it became a bit of an amusement in my home. You know, if Susan speaks, she better listen to what she has to say. She's going to say something interesting.

Did everyone think at that time that you were going to be a lawyer or did they say, you, are you lawyering or are you, you know?

Speaker 2 (03:42.644)
Interestingly enough, again, my parents, they were not educated people. My mother didn't get her high school education until she got a GED after we were somewhere grown. My father never graduated high school. They were just hardworking people who worked the job and they were entrepreneurs. So they had businesses on the side and they worked for us. And my eldest sister who was nine years older than I, then would say at some point when I was younger that

I should be a lawyer because I argue so much I should put my mouth to good use. I didn't really take that to heart until about eighth grade when something happened. for the most part, you know, we, I just had a wonderful childhood. Parents gave us the best that they could. We weren't flush with money, but we didn't know it. had...

But you know, I have to ask what happened in eighth grade I'm gonna have to ask the question of what happened in eighth grade But before I do I am going to say that I think that that You should be a lawyer is such a typical statement at least for me too when I was growing up because I would argue and get into you know and defend people as well, so

I heard that also from a young age, but I need to ask. I would be remiss if I didn't. What happened in eighth grade?

Well, let me back up just a moment. Just a couple little segues to put this all in context. So when I was in kindergarten, my sister, older than I was five years older, she was like the student aid in the class. And I remember, and my teacher reminded me years later, that I said something like, you know, when you're in kindergarten, all you do is play and take naps. But I said to my kindergarten teacher, can we stop playing and do some work? My sister was in the classroom at the time, and she ran home and told my parents,

Speaker 2 (05:35.598)
What did Susan say? mean, so that was the beginning. When I was in third or fourth grade, I had my first interaction of racism. And so if I was born in 61, I guess this is probably maybe 67 or 1968. And we were having a playtime in in classroom because it was raining outside or something. And I was in a storage closet getting some construction paper and crayons. And there was another kid in the class.

who pushed me and said, get out of my way, you n-word. And that was the first time I heard that. I I knew what the term was because we had watched the Martin Luther King funeral and we just, in my home, we talked about things. But I'd never been called out. So I said, what did you say? And he repeated it. And of course I knew it was not a nice thing to say to me. And so we struggled a little bit and the kids were saying, fight, fight, fight, know, that kind of a thing.

And so sort of, got separated. And when the teacher came back from her lunch break and she came to rescue the kids who got in trouble over recess, she was surprised to see me. And when she asked, what happened to you? Why are you here? Cause I'm, I was a good student. I told her what that young man said and she was shocked and appalled and I didn't get in trouble. He did. but that was my first jarring moment of

being faced with being called out of my name wasn't the last time, but it was the first. Eighth grade, we're doing an assignment in social studies class. I'm in a different school, I'm in middle school or junior high at the time. And the teachers were doing, reenacting the Nagasaki trial or some kind of court case that we had to have assignments for witnesses, jurors, prosecutor, defense counsel, and ultimately judge.

So at every turn, when he was asking for volunteers for these positions, I'm raising my hand, raising my hand, and not getting selected. Ultimately, he goes from the jurors, now he's up to the top. Now he's asking for who wants to be the judge, the last position to be called upon. And I'm raising my hand and I'm squirming in my seat. And he looks at me and says, you can't be a judge, and turns around and picks somebody else.

Speaker 2 (07:55.958)
So, at that moment I'm press fallen of course, I'm embarrassed, because I'm now the only person he says, I can't be this. And your last opportunity to participate in this project in this way. So, I was upset, but it wasn't until I thought about it later and I think I was telling my parents what happened, that, and as I recount the story later, as I tell the story, that why couldn't I be a judge? Why wasn't I good enough?

to get that appointment would be selected. I'm top of the class, I'm on the top of the honor roll just like other kids and all these things are coming into my mind. And as I matured a little bit and as I tell the story, I start saying, what is or wasn't that kept me from getting appointed? Was it because I was a girl? So was it sexism? Was it racism because I was black? Was it body shaming because I was a chubby kid? Which ism kept me from that?

And at that moment, really about at that moment, I set my mind that I was going to go to law school and I was going to be a judge. Didn't quite know the full path how to get there, but that set me on a path for continuing my excellence through junior high and high school. I was always, I learned a little bit something along the way as well. That's about when they put students into different classes, groups. I wasn't in the honors track.

Although I could have been, I was in the A, A college bound track. But what I learned was that if you get an A, the grade of an A, it's worth three points if you're in a college track. If you get an A and you're in an honors track, it's worth four points. So I could never be the top of the honor roll, although I always got straight As and A pluses. So that inequity started to bother me as well as I went through junior high and high school. Cause I would always look at, you know, they post these classes. I was always the third or fourth or fifth or sixth on the list.

I could never be number one. So that bothered me. Anyway, I excelled, excelled, and then I went on to college with the mind of majoring in political science and going to law school and ultimately at some point becoming a lawyer and maybe in the future becoming a judge.

Speaker 1 (10:09.806)
Yeah. So I'm going to tell you that statement from that teacher of you can't be the judge. Have you carried that with you through high school and college and law school? And I ask you this because I have not the same story, but I had a teacher when I was graduating high school say to me, you are going to be a complete failure in whatever you do.

It was, it was definitely in hindsight, just a personality difference of me being a confident senior and confident in who I was and walking with that confidence through the school, but with a teacher that I did not get along with. And she sets me as I was graduating, you are going to be a complete failure. You are, you know, and I, with every accomplishment, even that, I'm like.

yeah. And my mom used to say it might've been the best thing that she ever did for you, you know, in this like very backhanded way. But it is like when people tell you no sometimes is a motivator.

I never gave that teacher the credit for my success. Yeah. Because I knew within myself that I was bright and that I could accomplish. I mean, in junior high, when I got to ninth grade and all through 10th grade, I was the class president running unopposed, well, running opposed the first time, but then unopposed and was class president for four years. Right. And that was in the midst of being in a very

diverse or in a very minority of the students in the student body. But notwithstanding that, you know, having what I understood then were leadership skills and ability to communicate with the teachers and administrators on issues to advocate, going to school board meetings and things of that sort. So that had been me through junior high and through high school.

Speaker 2 (12:15.95)
going to school board meetings because we had an austerity budget, advocating for school activities and not to cut certain programs. And that was me. So I'd never looked back, but it did, it was always in my mind what he said. And obviously these many years later, I still tell the story because there's words mean something when older people say something to young people. It means something. It motivated me or instilled in me.

my purpose and perhaps for you it solidified you to that person I'm not. I'll show you. But what about the student who doesn't have the confidence?

I was about to say it completely derails somebody, especially in eighth grade and especially a young woman because I think that, you know, that's the time when women, young girls who are becoming women start having a lot of self-doubt.

That's

Speaker 2 (13:13.44)
And nowadays, and nowadays, and the world is different now than it was when we were younger, because there are so many competing influences on young people and how they feel about themselves, body images, their place in the world, their own personalities. And to say to any young person now, whether it's a parent or someone calling them stupid, or you'll never amount to anything or just embarrassing them in public, whatever it is, really can resonate very deeply with young people. And I'm very sensitive to that.

So where did you end up going to college and then law school? You said you were a political science undergrad. I also was a political science undergrad. But where did you attend college?

So I ended up leaving and graduating from my high school in Long Island and going to Philadelphia to attend the University of Pennsylvania. And my eldest sister, the one who said I should become a lawyer, she had gone to Penn. She's nine years older. So she had gone to Penn and graduated from Penn in a nursing program. So we had been going back and forth to Philadelphia to visit with her and things of that sort. said, well, you know, I had one other option. Again, I didn't have any guidance counselor.

assistance in selecting schools or even applying for schools. applied to two, got accepted to Syracuse, and got accepted to Penn. Didn't go to Syracuse because I didn't feel like getting snowed in at winter time and not being able to get home. I went to Penn.

I was, it was cold. went to Ithaca. I remember, I think it snowed October 1st of my freshman year. My roommate and I looked at each other and just, and we had a great four years, but we were like, what did we do?

Speaker 2 (14:54.126)
So I went to Philadelphia and there. So I started as a political science major and because of the influence of a couple of professors that I had, I realized I didn't have to major in political science in order to go to law school. And so I pivoted and created my own major and from there had very fulfilling college experience.

So I want to add, I'm going to like say this again to any young listener. I think it is so important. I said this to my daughter and she didn't listen to me. She's a graduated political science from Binghamton University and she was interested in law school. And I said, you do not need to be a political science major to go to law school. And I actually think it's better

You will be more well-rounded. You will be a better writer if you do a different type of humanities such as philosophy, English, history, uh, versus political science.

Yes.

Yes. I received some good advice and I was happy to pivot. had taken, you know, initially the political science class and some other liberal arts classes, but I found that being in the environment at Penn from my background and upbringing, I really wanted to learn and understand my African American history and my place in the world. So at the time there was no African American studies major at Penn. There was a department and there were classes sprinkled about.

Speaker 2 (16:27.352)
But I had an opportunity to do an independent study or independent process to create my own major by putting together the liberal arts program, the liberal arts classes having improved by an advisor. And so I did. So I had cobbled together all the classes that there were and had an extremely fulfilling educational background that was satisfying to me for my own educational purposes, learning about everything from literature

music, the arts, political science, sociology, psychology, all of the liberal arts. Not all just about African-American studies or black history or African studies, but the interrelationship amongst people and cultures in the world. graduating from there, I then went to Temple Law School. And that's where I had my great foundation in the law and great preceptors and professors. They guided me along the way.

And when you were in law school, did you know what type of law you wanted to practice? Did you have an end goal of where you wanted to be?

In my freshman year, my 1L year, I realized what I wanted to do. I actually had an understanding of it beforehand.

Speaker 2 (17:48.782)
I knew going to law school that I wanted to be a development attorney. I wanted to do development work. wanted to, I had always said if I had a license plate, it would say dirt law because I wanted to do real estate. And so when we took property in our 1L year, and most people didn't like property, know, to date understand the archaic principles of property, ownership of this, that, and the other.

But I love, I enjoyed it. I understood the rule against perpetuities. I understood all of that stuff that no one was like, what? But I understood it. took real estate, real estate development, finance, real estate transactions, and then all the other courses that I could take. But once it came to electives, the transactional, securing transactions, everything I could take to prepare me for that type of a career. I had an opportunity to do a clerkship, an internship at law school with the solicitor's office.

representing the Planning and Development, Philadelphia's Planning and Development Office and reviewing applications and that sort. So I prepared myself in that regard.

So you knew. So many lawyers end up in the area that they practice because that's where their first job is. So I did know I was going to do criminal work and I ended up in the Philly Public Defender's Office. went thinking I wanted to prosecute, but I wanted criminal law from the beginning. But most people I know kind of fall into where they are. I don't think people have such a clear pathway on that.

I do.

Speaker 2 (19:24.764)
I think I was...

Speaker 2 (19:28.898)
I just think that, first of all, I acknowledge and I believe I am truly blessed because in life, sometimes, as you just said, sometimes things happen because you plan it and sometimes things fall into place and sometimes things don't fall into place. But as I was approaching my third year and you start to think about, where am I going to go? What kind of job am going to get? I started doing the interview walk, just like everybody else. the time, would, girls wore these like little ties on their suits.

I have all my blue suits on traditional attire and interview at law firms and the city departments and things of that sort. But that wasn't what I wanted, but those are the opportunities that presented so and so was going to be on campus interviewing. So I signed up for those kinds of things. But as good fortune would have it, by sitting around in the Balsa Black Law Student Association office, when I was a Balsa officer, president,

But anyway, hanging out there between classes, student, one of my classmates came up to me and said, you know, go see professor so-and-so because we got, was speaking to her and telling her what you were interested in, zoning and planning. And she said, come see her right away. So I said, okay. So I went to that professor and she said, you know, I have one of my study buddies from Temple is an attorney in Atlantic city.

I was about to say, how did you get to Atlantic City?

This is just good fortune. He has a law, he's in a law firm, a good sized law firm and he does zoning and planning work. Would you be interested in hearing from him or sending your resume? said, absolutely. Who is this? So anyway, I send my letter off and I hop on a casino bus, you know, cause I have no money. I just want to get my coins back. And I head down to Horne Kaplan, Goldberg, Gordney and Daniels. And I meet with Jack Placter and John Walker Daniels who are the partners.

Speaker 2 (21:24.942)
As it would happen, Jack was a Temple grad and we talked a little bit about that and we talked about the job, this, that, and the other. Anyhow, fast forward, I can hire in my dream job, which is being at a law firm doing zoning and planning. And that's how I got my start and that's what I did. Condominiums were being developed. So we worked on developing condo documents and go to the DCA, getting approval appearing before boards, cities.

and zoning boards and the like. And that was how I got my start in Atlantic City.

Did you feel coming to Atlantic City and working here, there were any barriers or anything working at a law firm being, again, I'm going to say as a black woman working in Atlantic City at a law firm, I don't think there were a lot of women attorneys at that time. And I'm going to assume that there weren't a lot of black attorneys at the time at practicing in this area, let alone.

at that law firm.

It was, there were very few of us. So coming into an environment where I had never, I think I'd been to Atlantic City once as a college student. You know, we got all dressed up and came to the casino one time. But other than that, I had not been looking at Atlantic City. My focus was not on coming to Atlantic City. So I was new to the area, new to the practice, of course. I wasn't untrammelier with being the only minority or the only person of color in an environment. That was how I grew up and going to Penn.

Speaker 2 (23:01.802)
even though there were black and brown students at Penn, we were certainly in the minority in there and treated as such and oftentimes overlooked, not seen on campus and things of that sort. But coming to Atlantic City, I was not the first African American woman who had worked at that firm. So I think that the partners wanted to make sure that I was introduced into the community.

into the bar association, into the business community, because that's where our clients were. So chamber of commerce work and things of that sort. So they did a very good job of introducing me and putting me in spaces and places where I could become known and be involved. I didn't feel particularly out of place because again, I was used to being the only brown face in the room and I'm okay with that. But it did become a challenging to find that community of

like-minded persons, but I did. And so just about every African-American lawyer who was in town, I got to know. And so the elders in the group who became, I call them my big brothers, would be Richard Fauntleroy, Jim Jackson, became Judge Jackson, and Judge Dennis Brathwaite. Now Judge Brathwaite, and at the time Jim Jackson, who was practicing, and Richard Fauntleroy, who was practicing at the time, they did zoning planning.

They had done that work. And so I leaned into them and they leaned into me, you know, to give me some guidance. And they found a period before city council, I think for a while, Judge Jackson or Jim Jackson at the time was the Atlantic City City Council's, you know, that kind of thing. So it was nice to know that there were persons who had come before me who had done that work and persons who can give me some of the lay of the land because they were born and raised here or lived here and practiced here. And that was very helpful.

And then there were some of my female colleagues, other women who came into Atlantic City at about the same time as new attorneys. And we are friends to this day. So I am just one who also becomes very involved in meeting people and putting in collaborating with people and putting people together. So I put myself in the mix of being in places and spaces where I wasn't the only black or brown face in the room, because you want, you want to have that feeling of being a part of and not just in, but of.

Speaker 2 (25:27.49)
community. And so that's what it is.

Well, right the connections which I think was so important

when you're new to the community and you're new to a specific, when you're new to practice. I think it's something that's missing with our young lawyers of understanding how important it is to join organizations and business groups and bar associations to, in the end, find your people. Find the people that are going to help mentor you and that you can ask questions for and also help inspire you.

And recognizing also, not everyone is like me. I sort it out and I put myself in the middle of places. If a person is not as extroverted as I am, then they won't go to meetings, they won't go to the luncheons, they won't go to the Chamber of Commerce luncheons. Even if their bosses say, should go to make suggestions, they may not. But I threw myself right in the middle of things because I felt it was helpful, it was beneficial to do so. And it turned out to be just so.

I was going to say though is that part of it is that it is an overall benefit to you, not only in the sense of connecting with people and meeting people in a community that you were not born and raised in. And there are so many people in this area that can track their family back generation for generation, but it's really a part of making your business successful. It's almost...

Speaker 1 (27:02.582)
you know, those connections are essential. So we definitely understand not everyone's going to be an extrovert, but it's, you know, I think it's so important to have involvement in the community professionally. I think it helps professionally for lawyers to do that.

So I have to credit my father as well. While he wasn't an educated man by high school, by education with degrees, he was very much an organizational man. He was involved in a fraternal organization where he in New York and before he passed, he had moved up the ranks of this lodge from being the local lodge person to being the head of the state of New York. And he was about to run for the international.

leader of this organization when he took sick and passed away. So we grew up with my dad being involved in organizations and having people at the house come to our house and have meetings and we would sit on the steps and we would listen to our father having his discussions and of course not being involved in the discussion, we didn't speak, but hearing how he collaborated with people, how he spoke with people and involved themselves. And I recall when I was in college and I was joining sorority,

He would always contact me say, how are things going with the sorority? Because he understood that the nature of that relationship and that organization with the rites and traditions and things of that sort was something that we shared in common. And so he understood, and I think instilled in me, the need to build alliances, collaborate, work with others, learn the art of negotiation, conciliation, and things of that sort, because you don't always get what you want.

But it sounds like you did it from a young age. You said you were president of the student body and involved, and you're still involved in the sorority, right? These are lifelong connections that have rippled through your whole career.

Speaker 2 (29:00.622)
Yes, it's resonated. It's been a mainstay. It's part of who I am. in my DNA.

Yeah. So how long were you in private practice for? And was there a time in the practice that you really did say, want to be a superior court judge, or that was a goal? Because I think, I would say that I think a lot of attorneys when they're starting out might have that as a goal. But it's not, you know, it's not really on their road initially.

You know, it's almost like a wish list of down the road. So there had to come a time that it was.

it became more of a reality.

I knew that I wanted to be a judge, but I also understood that I wasn't on what I thought would be the traditional trajectory for that to happen.

Speaker 1 (29:57.302)
Is that because you weren't considered a litigator? Is that?

Yes, yes, absolutely. Yes. So part of what I did as of my preparing myself for opportunities, I was at the law firm for two years and at that time in 1989, that there was a recession, a huge recession. And so our development clients were not developing condos. They weren't building Smithville anymore or Brigantine. They were not developing.

My work dried up, so there weren't clients to take to zoning boards because there were no development plans. And so I knew that I was stagnant. Nothing was quite happening there. So I moved on to Atlanta County Transportation Authority, which became the South Jersey Transportation Authority at that time. And the plan was to expand the reach of that agency from just doing bus management with casinos to running the airport. I was part of a very small part, but there at the agency, when those

discussions were being held with the county and then ultimately the state took over the transportation authority. It was only there for a year when I sort of saw the writing on the wall was that I went there as a non-attorney, interestingly enough. I went there with a position called development coordinator because at the time the executive director

who came from the outside, came to the agency with perhaps the thought or understanding of taking the agency to a different space and being able to do certain things. I think we even tried doing a ferry boat from New York to Atlantic City, but that didn't work out because the waters were too rough. So we were trying different things with the agency. But ultimately the state took over the agency and I realized that my being here in a non-lawyer capacity, but supposedly they have to oversee all this development,

Speaker 2 (31:51.404)
wasn't going to come to pass. So I was fortuitously hired at the Atlantic County Improvement Authority. And there, that agency did public construction management. So using CRD dollars or other development dollars from the state, we made improvements. we built, renovated Boardwalk Hall. We built the Atlantic City Convention Center. But the last project I did, the big project was the Public Safety Building, the Atlantic City Police Public Safety Building.

And in between that, CNOTES would do direct investment projects, widening roads, street improvement projects, different things of that sort. And I was the in-house counsel, helping with redevelopment, going before boards, helping with bond financing or working with bond counsel and underwriters council on some of the financing deals, relocating residents and things of that sort. So I spent about 10 years there as in-house counsel. And that's where I met

Later to become Judge Donio, Michael Donio was our board president there and later Mark Sands and Judge Sands was our outside counsel and then I was in-house counsel and you we all worked together there and still hopeful that at some point my public service would be able to be turned into judicial service.

So.

So that's not where I thought you were when you went to the bench.

Speaker 2 (33:24.514)
There was. Okay, so...

That's what I'm like, that's not what I thought was.

And Okay, so along the way as I'm developing things and realizing Okay, here's how one has to prepare themselves So if anyone watching this and you're a young attorney or you're younger than that and you're hoping sometimes you have to create your own Pathway to be prepared for opportunities that may present themselves. So understanding that I was not a litigator

I became very involved in Atlanta County Bar Association, doing whatever I could do, being wherever I could be so that I could be known to attorneys, be helpful to the bar, and in any way possible, absorb other subject matter. So I helped our executive director at the time. It was special events. I was on the Law Day Committee. So I participated in multiple Law Day shows as an entertainer. And so by doing that, a lot of the judges participated.

And Judge Williams.

Speaker 1 (34:28.75)
Should I add that Laudai in Atlantic County at that time was like a big show. It was was comedy, were bands, there were, you know, it was a show.

nominal it

Speaker 2 (34:45.998)
It was a production and the guys at Goldenberg Mackler to their credit they were the house band. Other firms got involved because they very much they put their skits together and it was just a wonderful opportunity. But Judge Williams is a singer and I could sing and he could sing and there were times and to this day when we see each other we say when are we gonna sing together again? But anyway it was just being

and at the bar dinners and doing different things with the Bar Association, I was appointed to the judicial review, judicial JPAAC, or what's now known as JPAAC, the Judicial Review Committee. I was appointed by Judge Williams as a Congregation Commissioner. So there were different opportunities that came to me, but by being on the JPAAC, as it's now known, I was part of the committee that vetted lawyers who wanted to be judges. So I started to understand the process of what it took.

in what we reviewed as lawyers to recommend certain people for judgeships. And so I participated in that with some of the judges who went on before me. And there was an opportunity that presented itself to me to become a Casino Control Commissioner. And I accepted that position. And by doing so, I understood what it took to go through the process of becoming a judge. had four-way checked the background checks.

different review processes, nomination process, senatorial review, judiciary committee, and the like. I served on that committee as a commissioner for three years. I was under Christine Todd Whitman. I was appointed by her. And after that opportunity, I was contacted and asked if I wanted to then become a judge. And I was ready and prepared for the assignment.

So I'm sorry, in 2001 I know you were appointed.

Speaker 2 (36:44.589)
Yes, I see them.

Speaker 2 (36:56.686)
Okay, hold on a minute.

with

Speaker 2 (37:11.916)
I just saw that myself.

Speaker 2 (37:17.346)
Now let me see if I have to turn on the light.

Speaker 1 (37:25.41)
I know I was waiting until she finished too. saw it. It's all better. I don't know what it was like that.

Had to close my curtains. It just, it went really quickly. Okay, Tom, are we better?

Speaker 2 (37:39.244)
Melissa, I don't know what you were about to ask, so maybe you need to back up.

No, I think we're good. We're just going to pause for second and then.

Was it Senator Bill Gormley who appointed you, who nominated you?

Yes. 1998 was the Casino Control Commission. And then when that term expired on its own terms in 2001, he approached me and asked if I wanted to be considered for the bench.

So.

Speaker 1 (38:12.59)
And so that was my pause because I was thinking, I'm pretty sure the last job that you did was the Casino Control Commission before going to the bench. Do you think that taking the Casino Control Commission opportunity was helped in your pathway? Did you know that when you took that job that that potentially could lead to a judgeship?

Speaker 2 (38:40.78)
Yes, and no, yes I knew it would help in my pathway because the process that one goes through for a gubernatorial appointment is the same, the scrutiny. And then once you're, the scrutiny of getting through the background check and then through the judiciary committee, and then ultimately the restrictions upon you when you serve, I've come to know are similar, but I was prepared to make that step because I was so involved.

in the community and so involved in so many things that it was a good way of stepping down my involvement. So it was like going cold turkey. So when you're practicing as an attorney, you're in the community, you're a community person, you're all over the place and you're active as you are, then to say all of a sudden you're not allowed to participate. I didn't do any fundraising. I wasn't political, but I was community minded. And all of a sudden you can't do certain things. You can't necessarily affiliate the way you had done so.

freely before being at the commission was an opportunity to appreciate a different quality of life, a different way of life and creating that home life balance that was palatable but yet different. I didn't know for certain that I would be, you know, get that opportunity right with the judgeship. But when it presented itself, I was ready.

Yeah, so I would say that most of the people that I know that are on the bench and I have lots of people that are mentors to me that are now retired like Judge Sanson and people that are my contemporaries that are on the bench that have said that that is one of the most jarring things for them, that the change in the ability to be in the community and sort of, I don't want to say loneliness, but you're a little bit apart from everybody else in some ways.

But I was prepared for it, and once I became a judge, because I had already been living it for three years. So I had found a way to navigate and create that balance before I even went on the bench. was just a continuation in different kind of way, but I was prepared for the life change.

Speaker 1 (40:52.454)
So when you were appointed, you were the first black woman judge in Atlantic. And Kate, I say in our dissonance, how did it feel to break that barrier? And what did that moment mean to you personally and professionally?

Well...

Eh.

It wasn't the first time I was a first. So when I went to the Casino Control Commission, there had been Janine LaRue, who was there before me, an African American woman who was a phenomenal woman. Her chairman ended and I took her place. But I became the first African American Atlantic City resident, you know, so, you know, to be on the commission. So it was the first time in that regard. But when I went to the bench, there were only three other female judges there.

It was Judge Alvarez and Kate May. Judge Higbee, who sat in civil in in in Judge Armstrong, was the assignment judge. So going there, first of all, so to be one of four women out of 20 some odd judges, you you figure, OK, well, this is this is my space. And to be the only African-American woman, I felt honored to be the first, but it didn't affect me necessarily on the job.

Speaker 2 (42:09.036)
I just had, I just did my job.

Speaker 2 (42:13.71)
Initially.

Do you think it changed? Did it affect you later?

Speaker 2 (42:22.144)
No, let me put that differently. When I began in Atlantic County and Cape May County, it didn't affect me, but I started to build a network across the state to meet, understand and know the other black and brown Hispanic judges who are in the judiciary. Because there was a need, I felt the need to have support in the judiciary that didn't come and wasn't present because there was no one else there to commune with in Atlantic County. Now, Judge Jackson was there at the time.

and Judge Brathwaite was still there at the time. And so I could speak with them and again, they had been my mentors before I got there. So to continue to go into their office and sit and talk was okay, because they had been my mentors. But it was, it's again, trying to find community. And so with that, my reach became around the state. And at the time there was only one other African American woman

female judge in South Jersey. And that was Judge Christine Allen Jackson in Gloucester, that, this is 15, Gloucester, Cumberland, Salem. I think she went on the bench maybe a year or two before me, just about a year before me or so. And then of course you go further north to Mercer. And I don't know when the other judges came along, but there were not many, but those who were there, I called them my big sisters on the bench. So we had Judge

We had Judge Renee Weeks in Essex and Judge Shirley Tolentino in Hudson. These are all older women and several others from North Jersey. I would just sit at their feet at judicial college. would just, you know, because I wanted to know, I just needed to know, I wanted to be mentored. And so I sought out those other female, black female judges in the sisterhood that came with

knowing them and learning from them and hearing from them and just absorbing the stories of these judges as they talked about their pathway through the banjo.

Speaker 1 (44:35.256)
How do you think your perspective as a black woman shaped your approach to the law and the decision making?

Speaker 2 (44:46.786)
Well, I think, again, going back to the fact that I was not a litigator, I didn't have any particular experience in family, criminal, or civil dockets as we know it through the judiciary.

The work I had done with Landry's Planning and Zoning and such, and didn't really touch upon anything that I would have had direct experience with where I was assigned. But I did understand, through transactional work that I had done, the impact of relocating people from their homes for the purpose of businesses, widening streets and doing other things, that that had an impact on people's homes. Of course, being involved in a community with organizations.

You know, I was aware of the challenges in Atlantic City and the surrounding areas, not just Atlantic City, but the surrounding areas of the people who have, the people who don't have enough, and the people who are struggling to work and live and survive. I wasn't unaware of the situations of different family setups and different family situations. So when I was assigned to family court, while not every situation that I faced was my own lived experience, I was certainly understanding the receptive.

to realities of life of people. And so I think my personality, my compassion, my sense of just wanting people to have this say and to be heard in my empathy is what carried me through in understanding. So that's my background. That's my personality. If that's being a black woman or just being a human, that's what I took to the bench every day.

Right. mean, family is hard because you're dealing with people that have a lot of emotions with what they're coming to court for, whether it's custody and fighting for their children and wanting their children or divorce or restraining orders. There's just so much emotion in the feeling of people coming in and they do want to be heard. I mean, that's like probably one of the most important things that people

Speaker 1 (46:50.464)
in especially in that court want just want to be able to say their piece. Right. Well, you

No one comes to court because they're happy. Right. And so, whether it was in family court or even when I sat in criminal court.

I think to be a successful judge and to be the best judge you can be for the people who appear before you is to take the time as much as possible to let people have their say, even a little bit. So even in criminal court, when I had defendants come before me, and of course we understand in criminal court, you don't want anyone to say anything that might jeopardize them, or certainly the attorneys don't want their clients to speak, but there would be times when

Someone's just chomping at the bit. just want to say something and I would caution them, sir, you really ought to not do that. Let your attorney speak for you, but I understand that you want to say something. So I'll give you a moment. What is it that you want to say? Right. And sometimes it's just letting them, cause it's all bottled up. They just want to, you know, you understand it. You know,

do, and it's funny because you're sort of answering the next question I had, which really was, what qualities do you think make a great lawyer and a great judge? And I actually think that they're very similar in some ways. I know they're not exactly the same, but I think listening and being empathetic are really important for both lawyers and judges. So what do you think?

Speaker 2 (48:23.822)
Go ahead.

No, I was going to say, you know, what do you, what qualities do you think when you, when you think about, if you were talking to young lawyers, what would you say qualities make a great lawyer or a great judge?

First and foremost, I believe it's important that

Anyone who's going to go into the practice of law, and certainly anyone who's going to go on the bench, should have an honest look in the mirror and an honest talk with themselves. Because if you have a very large ego or if you're a bit narcissistic, this may not be the place for you. Because we are public servants. We're there to assist people who walk through the door.

If you're an attorney, you may have the choice of not accepting a client. You know, the person doesn't, you know, you don't think that your personalities would mesh to a point where they would listen to you or heed your advice or whatever the circumstances are, or maybe just personality wise may not mesh and you have a choice. But as a judge, you don't have a choice. When people come to the courthouse and they walk through those doors, they file their papers or they respond,

Speaker 2 (49:42.126)
as a juror or anything else. They sit before us and when you have on the black robe, expect you to have the wisdom of Job. They expect you to know everything and while we don't, we certainly have to listen and be honest and say to the persons whatever we need to say. You know, we have your research while I'm going to make a decision, I need time to make a decision, I've heard what you said. You know, those types of things. have to be

empathetic we have to be patient.

So are you saying that ego and narcissism might not be the best qualities for any sitting judge? Might be good for trial attorneys though, I will say that.

Hmm.

Speaker 2 (50:26.698)
But not necessarily for a judge. But that's why I think it's important that judges in particular need to be honest with themselves, to their own self be true. Because not everyone may be suited for the case type that they are assigned to, even though those assignments happen. You have to do your job. But if it's not a good fit for you, and if you can't

be empathetic, patient, diligent, thorough, and everything else in what you do to carry out that task, then you need to have a discussion with yourself or with someone else.

Right. You spent the last few years that you were sitting as a judge in the juvenile delinquency court. I do a lot of juvenile delinquency and I did in Philadelphia as well. I was specialized in that unit. And I, from a practitioner attorney perspective, I find it hard because you're dealing with children. And I don't believe that anyone is bad.

I believe that people make mistakes or bad choices or they don't have the support they need. And I truly believe in the goals of the juvenile justice system to treat, rehabilitate, and supervise so that these kids can grow up and have a productive, happy life. But, you know, sometimes we're dealing with kids that are involved in some very serious, serious charges and serious conduct that affects the safety of the community.

So I'm going to ask you, know, sitting as a judge in juvenile court, what were your feelings there? What, what hope did you have or what concerns did you have? And I don't even know if I don't know the answer to this, but did you enjoy sitting in juvenile? Because I thought you were a perfect fit for the juvenile justice.

Speaker 2 (52:26.926)
Thank you for that. It was my choice. Part of my career took me from the family court to criminal court back to family court and then to the appellate division. I had the privilege of being appointed and elevated to the appellate division and sat there from 2012 to the end of 2015 returning to the trial bench.

And during that time, I a lot, I had to write all the opinions on a lot of different case types, some of which I had experience with, some of which were brand new, because, you know, didn't do much civil, didn't do any civil work on the trial bench. But in the appellate court, you hear everything, and you're assigned the cases, and you do what you do, and you work with your panels, and you write your opinions. I requested to return to the trial bench because I was at a point where I made a decision.

me.

I was trying to make the decision about what I wanted to do for the next remaining years that I would be on the bench because I had already planned out that I was going to retire after I had served 20 or 21 years and could then be eligible to retire. And I wanted to have the option, the choice to decide if I wanted to stay on the bench or retire to be able to do some other things that I wanted to do in life.

And so when I reached that point, I was at the appellate division. I had to decide, do I want to stay here for the next six years or do I want to return back to the community? Because again, if you thought that you were somewhat restricted by time and opportunity as a trial judge, it's even more so when you're in the appellate bench. And so I decided that I wanted to come back to the trial bench and to do so, I was.

Speaker 2 (54:18.09)
offered an opportunity to sit where, you where did I want to go? What did I want to do? And by that point, I Judge Jackson had retired. And I said, I would like to do juvenile. And I requested it. And I came back and did just that. And I have to say that it was and became the ultimate blessing of my judicial career and my honor to sit and preside over juvenile docket for those six years before my retirement. And then even on recall, when I went back last year,

I went back specifically to assist in working in the juvenile duck. So in doing that, I think it was very important for a number of reasons. First and foremost, I think that because the majority of the kids in Atlantic, particularly specifically in Atlantic County where I sat doing this work, most of them are black and brown youths. I thought it was important that, again, that they see that there was a judge who looked like them in a place and in a space that showed them that they were not

necessarily bound to be where they were at that point in time in their life. They could have seen two more. I also felt that by going back there, there were some things that I hoped I could accomplish by being involved in some of the programs that juvenile court allowed you to be involved in that could also get me out to the community, our own community engagement programs, the programs around the state, and also just be able to use my voice in a way, in my presence, in a way that would be helpful.

not just to the youth, but to parents as well. Because as you mentioned, some of these young people are in situations that they didn't ask to be in these situations necessarily. They don't necessarily choose where they live or the folks who are in their lives or all the circumstances that befall them. And the parents sometimes have other children, are overwhelmed, and maybe just don't have the resources and support to do all that they would like to do for their entire family.

So not making excuses for any of young people who came before me, but trying to use the processes that we had available to us to give them to support, whether schooling, different programs and the like, and to be involved in creating programs that could be beneficial to help them on their very challenging journey through the teenage years. And that's what I hoped I was able to accomplish in some small measure.

Speaker 1 (56:40.782)
My next question was going to be what do you hope your legacy is and your impact on the community? And I think you might have answered it there.

Well, one of the things I was very privileged to do when I came back on the bench was at the time, the Chief Justice had put together a team of persons to develop a human trafficking, a juvenile diversion human trafficking program. Because what was becoming evident across the state is a lot of our young people were going missing. A lot of our young girls were going missing. There were young people coming into the juvenile justice system.

with charges that were incongruent with their circumstances. In other words, being picked up for vagrancy, for truancy, for shoplifting in places and spaces in that times of day that didn't match with what young people should be doing. They should be home with their parents in bed at two in the morning, not in certain other places. So I was asked to oversee and coordinate that program.

to develop that pilot program that began in Atlantic County to work with various stakeholders. And after working with this group for over a year, we did create the program. We called it the Yes Program, Youth Empowered for Success. And through that program, any young person who was court involved, either through DCP or the court system, whether they were identified as a youth at risk of trafficking,

or perhaps involved in trafficking, that we would provide through stakeholders services and support to get them either out of the life or to bring them back into a more stable environment. And we were able to do that when the program began and through the time that I retired, and I believe that there's still, the program did expand from Atlantic to three other counties, Camden, Ocean, and Passaic. They still run their programs. And I think there's still a hope that it would go statewide.

Speaker 2 (58:45.826)
but I'm not involved necessarily to know the status of where it is.

right now.

I think I have two more questions. You've been so great and I hope you still have time to chat because it has been a long conversation. But looking back, is there anything you would have done differently in your career?

career.

Speaker 1 (59:08.3)
Now, look at

Looking back, it turns out, as much as I would have liked to have been, I didn't have an opportunity to rotate. During the initial seven years when most drug judges had a chance to rotate to family, civil, and criminals, get a full feel for all of the opportunities. But as I looked back and I saw I did go to criminal, I didn't have a chance to go to civil. But as I look back on my career, I think I ended up just where I needed to be.

in just where my higher power believes I should have been. So, I have no regrets.

I always say that I truly believe that we are where we should be and things happen for a reason, even if we don't realize it at the time and if we don't understand the plan. And I'm a planner. I set a path. I have goals. And the times that I haven't hit the goals that I wanted at the time that I thought I was ready to hit the goals.

So time had gone by, I realized that I'm in a better place and that I had learned so much more. And I always use my business as an example. I opened up my law firm because the job I wanted didn't occur. And I thought I was ready for that new job and it didn't occur. and I feel so fortunate that it didn't occur now because I think that

Speaker 1 (01:00:38.306)
building this business has been a challenge that I didn't even know I needed. And I'm so glad that I had had this opportunity. I love the marketing and networking aspect. I love doing this podcast. I wouldn't be able to do any of that if I took the other path. And it was a path I thought was the right path, but it really is not the right path for me. This is the right path for me. So I think that you end up where you should be. I didn't know that this was my right path. I didn't know it.

But now that I'm here, I think this was the right path. No regrets on it.

But if I had to, and this is probably your last question, so I'm going to, I'm anticipating your questions anyway, but if I had to give any advice to anyone who's listening, a young person who hasn't quite decided or figured out what they want to do, or even if you're a young lawyer, sometimes we get caught up in the day to day. You're working, you put on your shoes, one shoe at a time, you go to work, you come home. But we have to take the time, we don't have to.

I would advise to take the time to plot out your future. You know, sometimes we go to interviews and people say, where do you see yourself in five years? Well, there's a reason for that question. Because if we get caught up in the day-to-day routine, some might call it monotony, some might call it minutia, some might call it routine. If you're not looking down the road, you could be missing an opportunity today.

to prepare yourself for a future opportunity. In the comments I've made today, the theme is I was always a few steps ahead of myself. But everything I planned for myself and did for myself was good and they were beneficial at the time, but it built that foundation for me in the future. So even going to the Appellate Division, I did not expect

Speaker 2 (01:02:39.192)
to get a phone call to present that opportunity. And it was challenging because there were a lot of case types I hadn't had the experience in. But I accepted responsibility and being the diligent person that I am, I did what I needed to do and I worked that position. But then I looked ahead again to say, where do I want to be in the next six years? And I evaluated and you make a decision, you make a choice, you make conscious

effort to plan your future as best you can. Some things may happen, some things may not.

I was gonna say sometimes there are things that are out of your control.

Absolutely out of your control. But for me personally, I feel more empowered if I felt I had a hand in preparing myself for it. Because at every step where I had to make, where I was offered an opportunity, if I hadn't been prepared, I would not have been presented with the opportunity. Correct. I saw something in me that said she would be

I'll with you on that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48.076)
you know, good for this position. Some of the positions I had, I understand, I appreciate that they're not offered to everybody. I've been blessed and I said that from the very beginning.

But I also didn't sit back and do nothing. It let life pass me by. I prepared myself for opportunities and in so doing, I still enjoy today, but I was preparing for the possibilities of tomorrow.

I love that. I'd love to finish on that, but I'm going to ask you the last question. I'd like that, but talking about the opportunities of tomorrow, and this is my final question, is you're in your retirement now. You came back on recall, and now you are officially retired, retired. And so I know you like being involved in the community. What are your projects or initiatives?

that you're passionate about right now.

When I retired, I continued to do some of the things that I had been passionate about that I was able to do on the bench, but now more able to do because I have theoretically more time. So the work I do with my sorority Delta Sigma Beta is very community based. Working with young people, we have mentor programs for young girls and I'm involved in those committees and some other committees that keep us very involved in the community locally. I'm involved

Speaker 2 (01:05:21.87)
nationally in two efforts that I'm very passionate about. One is with the National Consortium of Racial and Ethnic Fairness in the Courts. It's an umbrella organization of courts and court systems around the country that have programs that focus on access to justice within their court systems. New Jersey was one of the founding states of this organization over 35, 37, 38 years ago.

And I served as the national president of that organization for a number of years. And I'm still on the board of directors. I'm still planning and meeting with people around the country to discuss these issues, even in the wake of what's happening locally, nationally now, with a rollback on what's being negatively termed as a negative term, DEI. But really what it is is access to justice and providing a playing field for all persons who enter the courts.

to have access to the services that they deserve and they seek. Thirdly, I'm working with an organization that helps to found an organization called the National Judicial Network for judges who are interested in learning more about impacts on immigration and human trafficking amongst the immigrant community. And I've been doing that for now. I think it's been four years that we founded the organization. And we provide

webinars for judges, peer-to-peer webinars for judges, and seminars for judiciary staff and stakeholders to learn more about immigration process and trafficking, domestic violence, and the impact that those situations have on immigrant women and immigrant children.

And so I stay a little busy and I travel the country. teaching, I'm on faculty and things of that sort.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17.952)
I had no doubt that your calendar was still as packed and booked as it was when you were not retired or working full time. So I thank you so much for your time. I will tell you that what you do is impressive. I knew that we were going to have a great conversation. I hope that you continue to inspire women and I.

hope that you continue to inspire those individuals in your community that need to look up and to see someone of their race and their background having the success and creating the pathways that you did. So thank you so much for your time.

Well, it's been my privilege to spend this time with you and continue to do the excellent work that you do in your practice and in the community. And I look forward to having another opportunity to speak with you again if the opportunity should arrive. Thank you.

guys.

Sounds good.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15.502)
you

Speaker 3 (01:08:19.946)
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Speaker 3 (01:08:41.41)
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