Kristin Lis Returns

MIGHTY MERP (00:00.178)
And then the second thing is there's no delay. Kristin, there might be on my side, it might, if there is any pause in delay or glitches, only because I'm at home and I'm not, I'm plugged in, but I'm not directly plugged in like I was at work. So, you know, you got it. Just.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (00:18.562)
Mm-hmm. I'm at my folks right now, so their dog is here, but sleeping very deeply.

MIGHTY MERP (00:27.316)
Well, if the dog in your house is barking, the dog in my house is going to... Wait, let me just... One last thing, I have a gate that they can't get into, so let me just shut it.

MIGHTY MERP (00:42.228)
And thank you.

MIGHTY MERP (00:48.348)
I know, but then people want to see the dogs. There's so much more commitment that I would want to make. yeah. So, all right. whenever you're ready.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (00:48.365)
Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (01:06.257)
We were recording the whole time. He probably is going to use some of that those clips Okay

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:10.962)
good stuff.

MIGHTY MERP (01:16.768)
Kristin, welcome back to the Mighty MERP Podcast.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:20.162)
Thank you so much. I'm excited. It's 2025 and we got back together to complete this conversation.

MIGHTY MERP (01:25.704)
I know I felt bad that I was, you know, at the end, you know, the life of a lawyer really jumped in there where I, you know, had to say, my goodness, the court is calling me right this second. So I do apologize for the abrupt ending, but I know you understand.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:45.582)
I understand and I think it gives your listeners and viewers a real good insight as to really what our lives are like. At the drop of a hat, a judge could want to speak with you and it doesn't matter what we're doing. We take that call.

MIGHTY MERP (01:59.368)
Yes, I will say that there is a high energy and a high demand on us, which I think we were talking about last time. think especially we even having the conversation of switching to all Zoom hearings and meetings, but not getting that mental break because it was back to back to back. I will say that my kids who have worked at my office now for the summer,

I had my oldest worked as my legal assistant for about a year. They got to see that level of intensity that is always there that they now understand. And in some ways it's really nice that I get home and I can say now, cause they've seen it. I just can't talk for a little bit. just, you know, and when they were younger, you couldn't really say that cause they went in a

really understood it, now that they've seen it, can relate. So me being the nerdy nerd I am, I re-listened to the whole podcast and then I printed out the podcast because it, so I have like the whole podcast.

I'm just gonna say, I really loved the idea that, I don't really love the idea that you had to learn this, but the saying, we don't have to earn rest. We don't have to do enough work to earn it or deserve it. And I think that resonated with me. I'm sure it resonated with a lot of listeners. We were talking about the wall that you hit.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (03:48.226)
Mm-hmm

MIGHTY MERP (03:49.444)
And I think where we really were, were having the conversation of how you were handling it and sort of, you know, you did talk about the not eating and the other health issues and you said the doctor pretty much put you on a 30 day leave, which you had to negotiate for your trial.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (04:11.702)
Yeah. Yes.

MIGHTY MERP (04:16.212)
Were you struggling with actual, well, actual not the right word. Were you struggling with medical issues or was everything connected to the stress, which were true medical issues like probably dehydration, exhaustion. I'm sure your blood work was a mess if you weren't eating. Yeah. So if you could share a little, I know we talked about the wall as a very general term.

If we can talk about the details of how it affected you and what was the doctor's concerns, that was so mandated for you to stop working.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (04:56.962)
Right. Yeah, I think that just the overwhelming sense of dread that proceeded each day was cause enough for concern. And it's interesting because it's what came first, the chicken or the egg, the health issues that then contribute to me being worn down or the burnout and it manifesting itself in so many various ways. It's almost like all these little flags were popping up.

to say like, attention to me. Here, your nose is bleeding constantly. yeah, yeah. Family Law Symposium, had to walk out and go to urgent care. That was in 2023. Yeah, it just wouldn't stop bleeding. So that obviously was like some kind of.

MIGHTY MERP (05:45.182)
Right. So you were having physical manifestations as a result of...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (05:49.774)
I was having hives and rashes and it would be all over my neck or you know in all my arms. And the sleep deprivation thing was really probably one of the worst things was just not being able to sleep through the night because when you're so tired that's the thing that you want foremost and just that

concept of waking up every two hours and also having a sense of panic about looming deadlines or client cases, that never is a good impact. I've read several things about when someone is sleep-deprived, it's as dangerous, if not more, than somebody driving drunk. You are not of your own mind at that point.

MIGHTY MERP (06:39.744)
Well, that's why we have statutes in New Jersey now about sleep deprivation that are criminalized the same way as DUIs are.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (06:48.43)
And that and that can apply to like, you know, moms who haven't slept or dads who haven't slept or you know, any of those things and So it was kind of like I was noticing certain things but then the the blood test revealed other things and This is such a weird thing but I also had not been taking very good care of myself like getting regular checkups getting regular blood work going for you know, regular UJN and what

came up was like massive cysts. And like six months later, those were gone. And maybe it's the change of diet. Maybe it's the reduction of stress. I have a tendency to think that those things are connected. And those are ways that your body is rebelling against you and saying, please stop, please. And so, you know, the hives are no longer like taking over my whole body. I don't have the sleep deprivation anymore.

MIGHTY MERP (07:19.328)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (07:36.724)
Right. Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (07:46.518)
My appetite is generally good, especially when I'm in New Jersey and I have cheese steaks around or chicken farm. And in general, my happiness has improved. My quality of life has improved. And it's not just like a medication or a therapy, but like the overall just changing those bad habits that were really like dragging me down. And by bad habits, I mean like,

MIGHTY MERP (07:50.933)
Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (08:15.938)
overworking, not sleeping, not eating, not stopping for lunch, not having boundaries, working into the late hours of the night, waking, working into the early morning hours, working on weekends, working on holidays, having my phone not attached to me. So it was a lot of like behavior modification on my end.

MIGHTY MERP (08:35.008)
So that's what I was gonna ask, honestly, is that, so based on what you're saying, I'm assuming that a lot of the medical issues were able to be dealt with, but you needed, in the sense of medical care, but you also needed to address the mental health issues, the boundary issues, which worked hand in hand with the medical issues. So, so.

I always have like multiple questions, but my first one is how long did you really focus on you? Because I know you said the doctor wouldn't give you a time and the initial time was 30 days. And I think anyone who is dealing with all these issues, I'm going to say 30 days is probably not enough time.

And so how long in the end did you really need? And then my next question is always for someone who kind of made it, made their way out of it. And I know you're happier now, you're just as successful, if not more. What were the steps that you took? And I probably will want to go into depth about each of those steps.

But it's hard making that huge change. also, you said you weren't sleeping and you were constantly thinking. I call that like not being able to shut off your brain. Like how do you learn to say to your brain, shut the, and stop the brain from working?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (10:17.81)
Right. Especially when I had so many bad habits that had gone on for so long that it requires like mass, there's little shifts and then there's massive shifts. So to go to your first question about like how long it took. Typical recovery time for burnout can be a year, a year and a half, sometimes even as long as two years. I knew that I wasn't in a position to wait.

to return to work until I was like cured of burnout or fixed. But there's a level that you've reached that you've made significant progress in your own mental and emotional health and your physical health that you say, I'm gonna go back to work, but this time is under specific terms. It's not gonna be the 60 hour weeks. And during that time, you focus on

the lessons that you've learned and the little shifts that you need to make, instead of just talking about them with your coach or your therapist, you're now implementing them. So it almost feels like your homework assignment is to return to work and to establish boundaries. And thank goodness I did have a coach for this because I initially tried to DIY my burnout recovery. I think...

MIGHTY MERP (11:22.666)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (11:36.948)
Right, I'm gonna read all the books. I'm gonna like, I'm gonna teach it to myself. I'm a really smart person and.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (11:43.598)
Exactly. Yeah. I was like, I can do this. I'm smart. I'm trainable. And then you just realize that like you're in too deep. And the same way that we tell our clients like, you need me to handle this because this is what I do. you know, I am fully versed in this. I am kind of an expert. Then that's what I wanted out of my coach. I wanted somebody who really knew what they were doing, but also in the back of my head, I was like, cause then I can speed it up. Right.

MIGHTY MERP (12:12.488)
I know which is wrong, but I will say that, and I've talked about this, I was seeing a therapist when my mom was alive. She had dementia and I was taking care of her and then seeing the therapist after my mom passed away and my therapist was a former lawyer. So she was a lawyer first and then went back to school. And for me, that was really important. And I didn't even know it was important, but.

You know, sometimes explaining my day and my life and the pressures is really, you know, it's easy for someone who wasn't a lawyer to be able to say, just stop that or say no to that, you know? So yeah. so I get that, you know, finding the right person. And I also think sometimes, even if you know the information, it's hard to put it together for yourself.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (13:06.574)
Yeah, and we have this, I say we, I mean, for me, I had this fear that the way I wanted my practice of law to look like didn't look like anything I had seen before. And you have the naysayers who are like, oh, that's never been done that way, so it can't be done that way. you know.

going back to, think our prior conversation where like all we see are these people who are like working constantly and then brag about like how accessible they are or like how much of their personal life they give up in order to serve their clients. And it can be that you serve your clients and also have work-life balance. you know, but instead everybody focuses on like, let's all commiserate about how miserable our lives are and how we lack balance. So I worked specifically with my coach to

decide, and this is like so imperil, what do I want that to look like? And if it's not something that's available as far as like working at a firm or something, then maybe I just go solo or maybe I partner up with somebody where we are of like mind where we say, let's, let's design what our lives look like and then build our practice within those lives instead of vice versa. So.

MIGHTY MERP (14:07.391)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (14:27.368)
I worked with my coach and that, would be every two weeks I'd meet with her every week. I was meeting with my therapist. So it was great. Like I had the support of everyone and we understood there could be like some stumbles and you know, some challenges going from, you know, basically restart reentering the work field again, taking on cases again, meeting with clients again. And what I noticed is like, so it was about three months that I was on. It was about four months.

that I did not practice long.

MIGHTY MERP (14:59.634)
Okay. And just so we're clear, did you leave the law firm at that point? Were you on your own? Cause I know you were with a law firm. You. Build and brought in a lot of money. You said you were hitting a wall. Did you leave the law firm already?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (15:14.08)
yeah.

So after 90, and my doctor renewed once, twice, and after the 90s, he's like, I don't think that another 30 days is going to change your situation. And that was a really tough thing. But I was like, but I really need another 90 days. And he was like, oh, you can take another 90 days, but it's not gonna be medical leave. Essentially what he was saying is, you know what you need to do.

And I did feel like my progress was going to be jeopardized by returning to the same environment because they knew the old me. And I believe that the expectation would have been that like, I'm back. We're just going to continue on. Everything's good now.

MIGHTY MERP (16:00.704)
We're going to go right back into the trenches and do everything that I did that made me come to this wall to begin with. Yeah. Also, you know, law firms that are brick and mortar, or even if they do some work from home, but if they're established a certain way, people do not like change, which is really when you describe the type of business that you have and people sort of go, that won't work.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (16:06.114)
Right, yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (16:30.286)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (16:30.89)
Part of it is that there are just people that are no people in life. So whatever you say, they're going to say, nope, that won't work. But part of it, their position is I haven't seen it done, so it can't work.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (16:37.646)
Exactly.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (16:44.11)
Exactly, exactly. Or if we do that for you, other people might ask for those same things.

MIGHTY MERP (16:52.914)
And so, and.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (16:55.694)
And that's one thing I love about my coach was that she was seeking to kind of eradicate burnout culture as a whole. we can, until CEOs and CFOs and presidents of companies are receiving burnout training, burnout prevention strategies, burnout recovery strategies, it's probably not going to happen on like the greater scale.

it's going to start on a smaller scale and perhaps spread a at a time until the attention of a big CFO, CEO notices and they say, wow, we're gonna get the same result with all these people if we keep doing what we're doing.

MIGHTY MERP (17:40.8)
Right, well, I think it becomes a cost analysis as well, right? When it starts affecting the bottom line or productivity or something more, you know, unfortunately.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (17:44.364)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (17:52.686)
And I was grateful for those first 90 because I want to say like that was like the most intensive part where, of course, try to overachieve medical leave. Like where I wanted, I was doing like daily yoga, doing like every week therapy, doing journaling, meeting with my coach, working on my homework, you know, homework with my coach and just trying to.

get my brain back in line again, get my emotions in check and my brain in check. And also deal with questions within myself, which a therapist and a coach can't answer for you, which is, do I want to be a lawyer anymore? What is it that I like about it? What is it that I don't like about it? What is it that I have the power to change? What is it that I don't have the power to change? And given the things that I can change and can't, do I still want to be in it?

MIGHTY MERP (18:37.984)
Okay.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (18:51.528)
And do I want to be a family lawyer? And if I don't want to be a family lawyer, is there any other lawyer I want to be? And if I don't want to be a lawyer, what else will I be? That's a lot of stuff.

MIGHTY MERP (19:02.88)
Right, so you had like 10 questions. That's a lot of questions. I am gonna go back to your clients were being taken care of at minimum from the law firm, right? Which like.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (19:14.318)
Yes. Yeah. Right. So after the 90 day, I was supposed to go back to work and literally the night before, kind of had like, I felt panic. And I cried. And I felt like all of my hard work.

MIGHTY MERP (19:28.148)
Felt it. You felt it.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (19:39.01)
And the progress that I made and I had felt so happy and so proud of my progress, knowing that I was not even close to the end of the recovery, not even still in the beginning stages of the recovery process, but I just, felt threatened and nothing was said or done in particular, like to me, but there was so much doubt for me surrounding what my return would look like that, that doubt and that, that lack of communication.

just created more anxiety and fear.

MIGHTY MERP (20:12.862)
And your body probably was telling you, you know, sometimes, sometimes you're, think your body knows before that.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (20:21.964)
think about the brides that get nervous the night before the wedding and then they decide they're gonna back out. And I felt like I was one of those where I was like, can't continue on like this.

MIGHTY MERP (20:30.304)
Cough

huh. So, the next, so what happened the next day? Did you make the call? Did you?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (20:39.246)
The next day I sent my resignation letter and dropped my laptop, my keys, and my company-issued Amex off at the office. And I was like, I can't do this.

MIGHTY MERP (20:55.476)
But how did you feel after you dropped everything off?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (20:58.294)
scared, scared, but proud. Like it was definitely like a double edged sword to other side of the flip of the coin, where I was scared because I had no plan. And so like the immediate response when you submit a resignation is, well, where are you going? I had no answer to that. I had nothing lined up.

MIGHTY MERP (21:22.4)
Right. You still had the eight other questions that you needed to answer, whether you wanted to work as a lawyer, what type of law you wanted, where did you want to practice, how you were going to practice. You had a lot of questions that were still outstanding.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (21:27.086)
Alright.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (21:37.932)
Right. And it's interesting because I think that that next moment that followed, I began to really work on now that I have closed this door, working with my coach and my third. What does the future look like for me? What am I going to do to generate income? What am I going to do? What career am I going to pursue?

how do I go from where I am right now unemployed to employed? But in a way that serves me and in a way that is not going to jeopardize the progress I've made and is not going to thrust me right back into 40 to 60 hours a week, which most things that are listed are. So, you know, when I just knew, I'm like, if they want or of course who's gonna do six, I'm not in it.

MIGHTY MERP (22:33.556)
Right. I've done it.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (22:34.53)
So I got really creative and I started, you know, initially like applying for, you know, temporary jobs or part-time jobs. And then also kind of writing a list of all the reasons why I didn't want to start a law firm again. Cause of course, everybody was like, you already did it before. Yeah, I did it before. I know how hard it is. And I did it before like without a burnout brain and it was hard.

MIGHTY MERP (22:55.85)
it.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (23:01.386)
Now I have to do with my recovering burned out brain.

MIGHTY MERP (23:05.362)
So did you decide that you still wanted to be an attorney? Did you have an epiphany that was there something that was the catalyst to get you to that point? I want to be an attorney and I still want to be a family attorney. I mean, those are two big questions. So were they the ones that you answered for? I assume you had to answer. I want to be a lawyer first, you know.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (23:09.132)
I did.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (23:30.23)
Right, yeah. Instead of a ballmark reader. Which was on a list of possibilities.

MIGHTY MERP (23:35.52)
Again, you said you could always go back to teaching. could, you know, I taught at Rowan University for a number of years as I was, you know, I always like to say when I tap the breaks of my legal careers, because I had four kids under the age of four, which is a lot of kids. I know there's twins in there. I cheated. I was only pregnant three times.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (23:39.992)
Exactly.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (23:58.528)
That's all right. You got your bang for the buck. So I guess, yes, I started working on the answer to those questions, what I wanted to be when I grew up, was what I already was, was that what I wanted to stay. And I have to tell you that some of the encourage, I actually, received encouragement where I wasn't expecting it.

MIGHTY MERP (24:05.588)
Yes.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (24:24.168)
And there are certain people in your life who you hold in high regard and their opinions mean a lot to you. It was during my burnout that I really, really missed my judge, Judge Baker, who passed away because I was like, Max would have known what to say. Max would have known like what to tell me. And I could have turned to him. So instead I started thinking like, well, what would Max say? What would Max say? And then I just so happened to...

MIGHTY MERP (24:36.768)
Okay.

Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (24:46.964)
What would Max say?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (24:53.526)
run into a few judges that I had been in front of who had noticed that I had been absent for a little while, nothing before them. And it kind of filled them in. And I was really kind of taken aback that they were like, we need you. Like, we need you. You're needed. There's a population of people who will be better served with you by their side and don't, you know.

Don't let this get you down. And it may be that you cared so much and that's kind of what brought you down this lane. And that's what makes you good. And so like, first of all, I don't know how it is in the realm you're in, but compliments are very few and far between when you're dealing with divorce. And it's not.

MIGHTY MERP (25:36.832)
hearing from a judge that you're good, you know?

MIGHTY MERP (25:46.304)
Right. Well, I always say that the compliments from the court usually I find are in their, uh, the language to ensure that whatever occurred stays and is not appealable, which, which sounds awful to say, but you know, when you hear regularly the first time you hear it, you're like really proud. Uh, you know, the plaintiff or defendant is represented by competent counsel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (26:01.23)
You

MIGHTY MERP (26:16.01)
But then you realize that it's just part of the language that they're using prior to rendering their decision. It's different. You're saying they went out of their way to say to you, you are really good at what you do.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (26:29.248)
And I was, you know, I always want to think like I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm doing a great job, but like to hear it from the people that have like hundreds of attorneys appear in front of them, it felt really good. And, but it was like a sincere thing, which is like, you realize like, there's not new attorneys coming up. Like this is a, this is a really tough field and we get where you were coming from. And we're not honestly all that surprised that you.

got worn down because you work really, really hard and you're really intense with how you advocate for your clients and you care about what you do. But to hear them say that was like, wow, holy moly.

MIGHTY MERP (27:09.832)
Yeah, and it's great that they did. think that, you know, they have so much.

Like you said, they see so many people, so many people are in front of them and just those kind words of saying like, we need you in the court. Your advocacy is missed. We feel the difference. It's a huge, huge.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (27:36.14)
And it meant so, so much. Like, I don't know if they even appreciate like the gravity of their words. And then the second thing that kind of happened that was, I feel like the universe will like send you these like signs.

MIGHTY MERP (27:47.072)
I And I say it that too. I say the universe. The universe is sending me a message.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (27:55.18)
I started to get like Facebook and Instagram messages from my former clients who finally were notified that I was not coming back to the firm. so they found creative ways to find me, whether it was like LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram or Twitter. And suddenly I was getting messages saying, where have you gone? Are you okay?

MIGHTY MERP (28:02.506)
saying when are you coming back?

MIGHTY MERP (28:21.45)
Right, we.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (28:22.998)
And please come back, I need you. I guess inherently in all of us as human beings, it feels good to be needed and wanted. And when you're in the depths of burnout, you feel in your gut that nothing you do matters. And it's a real feeling of like stagnancy or like lack of, gosh, I wish I could remember, the lack of efficacy.

MIGHTY MERP (28:26.044)
MIGHTY MERP (28:32.384)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (28:40.692)
Brian.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (28:51.31)
You really start to feel, and this is not just me and it's not just lawyers, like whether it's a doctor, whether it's a caregiver, you start to feel like, you know, what you do doesn't matter or that you're not making a difference or that, you know, you're a cog in a machine, the insularly replaceable woman.

MIGHTY MERP (29:06.344)
Right. I'm replaceable, not being there, you know, and...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (29:10.306)
Like, why am I doing all this working so hard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff when does it even really matter? And so like having been in the pit of, I think I don't matter, to hearing from people like, I hope you know, you were like my favorite and I really miss you and things have gone all down the drain since you've been gone.

and you wouldn't understand and I have an upcoming thing and when you get somewhere will you please tell me where you are and I was like okay I will.

MIGHTY MERP (29:37.62)
Ryan.

MIGHTY MERP (29:45.46)
Right. And the universe, when you say the universe is sending you messages, it's all about the timing as well. Because if those judges interacted with you or those clients, maybe within that first 30 days, it might not have changed where you were mentally. But it was after the 90 days, it was you making the list and trying to really figure out what your roadmap and future was.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (29:52.11)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (30:15.008)
And at the same time you hearing it, was at a point in your, I'm gonna say recovery or that you were able to hear and listen and yes, and receive what you, because if you're not able, if people are saying all of that, but you're not in the right place to receive it,

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (30:24.0)
Yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (30:29.399)
Receive.

MIGHTY MERP (30:41.504)
You know, so that's why I say the timing is always so important as well. So, you know.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (30:46.402)
Yes. We hear all the time from people, I'm working with a therapist. And in my head, I'll be like, I can't tell. Because we're not in a position where they're receiving. They're just simply spewing information at that point. You have to get to the point where you're able to receive and discuss how to implement change. The past is the past. We can regurgitate it and put it out there and tell our therapist or our coach or our

MIGHTY MERP (30:53.268)
haha

MIGHTY MERP (30:57.93)
Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (31:13.516)
lawyer where we're coming from and that history that brings us to where we are sitting in front of them that day. But until you're open to receiving, there's no change behavior up ahead.

MIGHTY MERP (31:27.284)
Right. So you learned at that time that you want to be a lawyer, you still wanted to do family. and then you, you had to have made the decision after you do it, did all your pros and cons that you're going to open up your own firm again. no, you didn't. You didn't know.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (31:34.318)
Hmm?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (31:46.23)
They didn't. That was one of my decisions was not to.

MIGHTY MERP (31:51.744)
I always think that you're now solo, but you're not. I apologize for saying that.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (31:58.016)
No, it's good. have so much, and what I love about where I am, and this is why this is a good fit, and this is why it, this, again, the universe popped it into my lap, and attracted us, is that I have so much autonomy, that sometimes it feels like I'm a solo, but I'm not a solo, because I have an amazing team, and amazing supports, and other attorneys on the team, my boss.

MIGHTY MERP (32:13.631)
Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (32:24.696)
John is fantastic. Like talk about supportive and encouraging. mean, it feels like almost like a dream. I don't know. My paralegal is fantastic. The intake team's fantastic. I get all the benefits of being solo, which are, you know, me working from wherever without anybody criticizing or anybody judging me and get to represent my clients. I get to pick and choose my cases. I get to choose what case types, what counties.

MIGHTY MERP (32:48.736)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (32:51.53)
All of the same things that I'd be in charge of if it was my own firm. But instead I have somebody who manages payroll and makes the HR decisions and maintains the insurance and, you know, does trainings and retreats and all the, all the parts I didn't want to be in charge of. Someone else is gladly taking charge of those things. And, and yet I feel like a valuable member of a team feels nice.

MIGHTY MERP (33:09.138)
right

MIGHTY MERP (33:18.43)
Right. So you said the universe dropped this in your lap. So tell us the, the, the, how this door opened because it didn't just drop. were, you were looking for the right fit and you were, and you, you were at a point. And again, you were at a point where you knew what was going to be acceptable and you knew what was not going to work. So I'm sure that is part of the.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (33:25.378)
You know, of course I'm like looking... No, no, you're right. I was looking for the right fit,

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (33:41.134)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (33:48.114)
realization of what you needed in order to stay within the field of working as a family law attorney.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (33:56.558)
Yeah, I actually had like a couple headhunters reach out to me and they were like actively working on things and then they would give me like a little synopsis of what it would entail and I'd say something like, is remote okay? And they're like, no, they're hybrid. I was like, what do mean by hybrid? You gotta be in the office three days a week. I was like, no, thanks. Or the next one, is,

well, it requires you to practice in this county or it requires you to take DV cases. And long time ago, I decided that as I was focusing more on matrimonial and custody, it's impossible. Okay. My perspective, I know that there are lot of people who disagree with me. I think it's impossible to be at the ready to be a DV attorney with that quick turnaround time. And also

tend to the very high conflict divorce cases and also tend to the very highly emotionally charged divorce cases.

MIGHTY MERP (34:58.132)
That's why I think, and I again could be controversial, but that's why I think the criminal defense attorney's handling the DV restraining orders makes more sense. And there, there is a.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (35:07.668)
I agree with you 100%. I have always disagreed with the jack of all trades, like jack of all trades, master of none.

MIGHTY MERP (35:14.664)
Yeah, that is a quasi criminal hearing with quasi criminal ramifications. And you need to have significant trial and evidence, knowledge and experience. And, I think, you know, you have to subpoena the police report. have to understand the police reports. have to, there's just, I think the best attorneys.

For the most part, I'm not saying, there's always outliers one way or the other that handle the DV restraining orders are criminal defense attorneys. And I'll tell you, I was in court the other day with, where there were two criminal defense attorneys and they were cross restraining orders. So, you know, I had the plaintiff and then the defendant and the other person had the defendant who then filed an plaintiff and the judge said,

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (35:45.292)
Great. Yup.

MIGHTY MERP (36:12.244)
We had court in the morning and then in the afternoon there was a swearing in of a new judge. So we saw all the judges and he said to me, when I saw it was you and the other attorney, both criminals, he's like, I knew you two were going to work it out. And I said, yeah, what are we going to do? Like have a slugfest between the two of us? You know, I said, we both knew that. I was like, I didn't think you were going to grant either of them. I didn't want to waste, you know, a full day of trial, you know, but I do think that and.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (36:24.696)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (36:37.24)
go through my whole show, yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (36:42.068)
By the way, my clients ask me to handle custody, divorce, alimony, anytime they say splitting up property, even if they're not married, and I say, and this is why I think criminal defense attorneys are also better about handling the restraining order, when they go down that road of custody or alimony, or I say, nope, not the right courtroom, nope.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (36:54.446)
Hmm?

MIGHTY MERP (37:11.584)
we're dealing with the restraining order here. I might be able to argue for, if I have a defendant who hasn't seen his, and I said he, but if they hadn't seen their children, yes, I will argue for time, especially if it's dismissed. But I think it's really easy to say, nope, that is your divorce lawyer. And that is what they are.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (37:20.802)
Yeah, whatever gender.

MIGHTY MERP (37:40.224)
you're able to like streamline them in ways that you can't if you're handling all of it because people that are going through divorce like to vomit a lot of information out to you. Even if you're like, we're just dealing with the restraining order right now. But he three years ago, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, no.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (37:55.246)
right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (37:58.787)
Hmm?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (38:02.358)
Yeah, the other thing that I think is really important about having two different attorneys handling those two different things is what, because I obviously reached this conclusion after having done, tried to do them all. And what I saw was that when I was representing someone in the domestic violence matter, even if it resolved amicably through civil restraints, that other party saw me in the like,

fierce, like I'm going to destroy you in DV court mode where they almost took whatever hatred or anger it was leading into that situation and then reflected upon me. So even moving forward, I felt like it jeopardized the ability for us to try and amicably resolve the divorce because that person already did not have trust for me. That person...

already felt like I was trying to stick it to them. And a lot of times I'm like, it's just not going to work. It's not going to work as well. They and their attorney need to see me as somebody who really wants to see you get divorced and we're not going to continue to rehash the past. That is what it is. It's either a DV order or it's a civil restraint. But once you're sitting next to the complainant in a DV matter,

That other side pretty much hates your guts. And anything I suggest is going to be thought out.

MIGHTY MERP (39:31.2)
It's interesting. didn't think it from that. didn't think of it from that perspective. if your client doesn't think you advocated enough for them during the DV case. And the DV case is quick. Sorry, we went inside.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (39:44.386)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (39:51.562)
well, I love that segue is so important because I think it is a huge misnomer. Like this one attorney can handle all of my things and it can I guess should I probably not just the same way you could. Could you do an uncontested divorce or a settlement agreement? Absolutely. You're smart enough to do a settlement agreement.

MIGHTY MERP (40:10.866)
I mean, I jokingly said, you know, my uncontested amicable divorce took about four and a half years. So I'm not really the person to hire, but I, I think that in the same way that you enjoy being an expert in family law and doing what you do and knowing how to resolve issues reasonably, cause you know what the law is and what is a reasonable ask versus an unreasonable ask.

I really enjoy being an expert in criminal law. a certified criminal trial attorney. I feel like...

This is the lane that I'm in. I, again, I don't want to be a jack of all trades. I am, you know, very clear of what my expertise is. And when I meet with clients, I say, if you called me about a divorce, I would refer you. not, I'm a certified criminal trial attorney. If you called me about a workman's comp claim, I'm referring you out. said, you know, and so, I think it's hard to be an extremely

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (40:56.28)
Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (41:12.334)
Exactly.

MIGHTY MERP (41:19.09)
effective lawyer and advocate if you're doing everything. And again, I will say there's outliers. I know a few people that do a little bit of everything and they do it really well, but that is not the norm. I think usually people that are doing a little bit of everything are doing a little bit of everything, not effectively at all.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (41:23.803)
yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (41:41.528)
Right. That was one big thing I saw during the pandemic is that people who had not historically done family law, but perhaps maybe were doing civil or criminal or municipal, suddenly when I believe the criminal courts and the municipal were very much impacted by the pandemic, whereas family law courts really just had a minor speed bump while they figured out how to get us all on Zoom. And I saw a lot of people dabbling at that time and I was like, gosh.

It's not as easy as you think it is.

MIGHTY MERP (42:14.72)
no. And your clients are, you're dealing with people that are generally good people in the worst time of their lives, you know, and that are making, they're making very reactive, you know, responses and decisions. after your, yeah, after your headhunters,

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (42:21.624)
Okay.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (42:29.452)
Yeah. So back to the job falling in my lap. Okay. It's not really falling in my lap. I've got these headhunters calling me and they're presenting like really prestigious firms and like good starting salaries and benefits. And I was like, yeah, but if it's this billable, you know, minimum and they want me at my butt in the seat two days a week, just so can feel good about paying their commercial lease. They're not a good fit for me. I don't see how that fits into my scheme of

continued burnout recovery and those types of things and improving my work-life balance. So I interviewed with NetSquire and at the end, was a great conversation. It didn't really feel like an interview, but more like a open conversation about like the practice of law and virtual and how I love practicing virtually. And at the end, was like, I just said candidly, I don't think I'm who you're looking for. You need an associate who

is going to take your cases and then like do all of those all in a North Jersey and Central Jersey case at the courts. you know, basically your overflow, the cases that, you know, you don't have the capacity, you want an associate to hand those off to. I'm not going to be that person. I might be that person for like one or two months until my clients come calling and then I'm going to be so busy. You're going to be back to interviewing all over again. So.

you know, respectfully, like keep looking. I know that that person's out there. I wouldn't want to waste your time when you desperately need.

MIGHTY MERP (44:00.842)
Did you say, but I can open the whole South Jersey brand for you so you cover all of New Jersey.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (44:08.216)
Fortunately, John and our conversation was, but I'm not done with you yet. I think that we might be able to make something work. And so that spurred another conversation with both of the partners at that time, John and his partner. And he's now running NetSquire Sol. So the conversations felt less like interviews and more like conversations about.

MIGHTY MERP (44:21.344)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (44:36.428)
what's, and this is where the coach came in. Thank goodness for the coach. What did I want my reality look like? Cause I knew what I didn't want. And so we started with my list of don't wants. I don't want to be physically chained to an office. I don't want to have to move back from Florida. I don't want to, I don't want to use a Windows computer.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (45:03.096)
Bye.

MIGHTY MERP (45:03.837)
That's the benefit of being the boss. I have a Mac and everyone else has Windows

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (45:06.122)
I don't, it's such a simple thing, right? But like, I haven't used a Windows based computer since 2008. No, no thank you. I like picked up my husband's ThinkPad like or whatever, Lenovo one day, or I could not even figure out how to maneuver it. No, I don't want that. Like just let me keep using my Mac. So what don't I want? Came up with my don't want.

MIGHTY MERP (45:32.052)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (45:35.832)
don't want minimum billable requirements or I don't want where I'm the all, the do it all. I do want support staff. I do want this. I want autonomy. I want to cover my Southern counties. I want the ability to keep referrals in-house so that if somebody I'm representing moves to Essex County, we can keep them. We continue to help them. And so when I reconciled my list of wants,

MIGHTY MERP (45:59.956)
Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (46:04.366)
with what their wants were. There were a lot of similars and I felt like they could take me as I was and let me do my thing, but with their supports and their systems and their wonderful support staff. And I thought, let's give it a go. Let's give it a try. And it's not one of these like fool me once or fool me twice. Like I'm gonna be.

MIGHTY MERP (46:08.608)
Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (46:33.4)
pretty aware of whether I'm regressing in my burnout recovery or continuing forward with my burnout recovery. Because at that point I still was working with my coach and she was available to me. So she was holding me accountable. you know, remember you said this is important and this was going to be a part of your life moving forward. You're stop time or, you know, we're not working on weekends. And so when I was transparent with what I wanted with my now boss,

MIGHTY MERP (46:42.207)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (47:04.128)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (47:04.162)
There weren't these like, he expects me to be available seven days a week, 24 hours a day, but I don't tell him that I'm not gonna be available weekends. No, it was transparent. Like, I'm gonna work Tuesday through Friday every week from eight to five. He's like, okay, that works. What will you do if you have Monday court though? And I was like, I'll swap my day off for another day.

MIGHTY MERP (47:21.258)
Right. So you are very, very.

MIGHTY MERP (47:29.344)
So you said, I'll work four days a week, full time. These are the hours. So you were very firm on that. Do you book your calendar or does someone else?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (47:44.81)
as far as like when

MIGHTY MERP (47:47.402)
So with clients, so I want to know how did you set up boundaries with your calendar? Did you set up? So these are the nuances. Like when people are, when they don't know even the first steps to take, you know, some of it is being really clear of your calendar, you know, and I, I'm going to say, I had a conversation with Geraldine Lawrence on the podcast and

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (47:53.246)
mm-hmm. Yes.

MIGHTY MERP (48:15.814)
I said sometimes like there's just, I said sometimes I feel like if I'm doing a really good job as a lawyer, not always doing the best job as a mom. If I'm doing a really good job as a mom, which I was quoting,

MIGHTY MERP (48:33.182)
having a brain freeze right now. The joys of getting older. Shonda, can't think of her last name. It's a quote that she has said. And Jerilyn said, no, I don't agree with that. And she said, it's about really booking your calendar. I, and I really took that to heart where I like now there's a lot on my calendar that's personal stuff, you know, but I also say to my staff, if you see, have a doctor's appointment, like,

You can't, if the doctor's appointment is at 12 o'clock, you can't book me for an 1130 or an 1145 call. Like you have to give me a buffer. Like I have a doctor's appointment and I had to teach my staff that the calendar and creating that buffer zone. If you see, have a two o'clock court date.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (49:13.72)
Yes.

MIGHTY MERP (49:25.832)
You can't have a 130 meeting with a client that I need to look at the file when you know I'm going to be in the car for those 30 minutes. You know, some conversations I can do in the car, but not a review of the discovery and the police reports. I actually need to be looking at them. So, so what did you put in place? What were the, like, so the date you were clear about the days, you were clear, no weekends, you were clear virtual. I'm going to be in Florida, but I will be working.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (49:42.702)
Exactly, yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (49:49.612)
Mm-hmm. Right.

MIGHTY MERP (49:55.784)
and handling, what were the things that you needed to implement personally for you to protect yourself from future burnout?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (50:07.182)
I am so glad you're asking that because I really needed to be firm about my hours because I was all over the place prior to that. So I decided I was doing an 8 a.m. start. The office doesn't open till nine. That's one full hour of complete silence where I can read my emails, prep for my day, whatever it is. Whenever I do have personal appointments and now I do, I put those on the calendar and they stand. We don't move OBGYN appointments.

for a client meeting. Like that's not happening anymore. Talk about breaking the bad habits. 5 p.m. is a firm stop time. Now, on a one-off, like somebody's like, I literally am in a different time zone. need, okay, but I pay myself back. This is what I learned from my coach. So let's just say I had somebody who was like in China. I would do a call at seven, but the next day I wasn't starting until 10.

MIGHTY MERP (51:06.27)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (51:07.672)
So was a shorter day to accommodate the longer day. And as far as blocking things, having a really in-depth conversation with my paralegal about, if you see, I am panelling MESP settlement panel on Wednesday, please know that that comes with, here's what it involves. And I think educating our support staff is so much more important because all they know is I have an MESP that day. What does that mean? And what does it entail?

And for me, it entails several hours of reviewing attorney memos in order to make a good recommendation the next day. So now if you have an MESB on a Wednesday, lock off four hours on a Tuesday or a Monday, or not Monday, because Monday's off, to review the memos. And that's the time I'm going to review the memos. And if the memos come in after my review time, they don't get reviewed. Because they were due by Friday.

MIGHTY MERP (51:51.604)
Right. Yeah. And you know what?

MIGHTY MERP (52:00.362)
Yeah, wow.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (52:03.736)
So if I don't have them by Tuesday morning, they're not getting red. Because I'm protecting my teeth.

MIGHTY MERP (52:04.008)
So.

Yeah, the point of educating, yeah, and educating the support staff. I had to tell my staff when a case is a jury trial.

I said, and the case is going. I have a lot of jury trials that are scheduled. They're not the first case. My client's out of custody. It gets pushed back. It gets pushed back. But I had a trial. don't remember now. I think it was in August. It was in August. It was like the first two weeks of August, a break. then the last week, it was a three week trial. And I'm looking at my July calendar and I had to say to them,

How do you expect me to prep for this trial? You don't give me any days. And they all looked at me and I was like, if I have a trial a month before, you need to give me days, you know, where are there blocked off trial prep days. And I do prep on the weekends. I don't have those strict boundaries, but I can't do all the prep. can't meet with client, client, client, client.

all day and be in court all day and then have the mental, wits, yes, wits band to, to then prep a trial. am, you know, exhausted. So.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (53:24.622)
capacity.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (53:31.66)
And not to say that trial prep on a weekend is completely prohibited. My coach needed to work with me on this, which is, okay, we say no weekends, but like occasionally you might need to, but it's not every weekend and it's not every night that you're working till nine. It's a one-off. When it becomes every weekend, it becomes every night. That's when the boundaries have completely disintegrated. And don't beat myself up if there's a weekend where I'm spent prepping.

MIGHTY MERP (53:50.645)
right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (54:00.706)
It means I care and I'm trying to get done. And it may mean that I need to have a little sit down about what blocking for trial prep means. But so I pay myself back. Trial's done. I take two days off to pay myself back for whatever it is. By the end of trial, I'm going to need the two days off anyway. But not letting it become a habitual thing where, you

MIGHTY MERP (54:08.658)
Buy it.

MIGHTY MERP (54:19.432)
Yeah, yes. I've also.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (54:27.242)
I want my life to be like that trial prep and working and directing things at 9 p.m. are the exception, not the rule. And my life prior to burnout was that that was the rule and not the exception.

MIGHTY MERP (54:40.478)
Right. Well, it sounds like prior to the burnout, you really were working 24 seven in the sense of even when you might not have been working and you were sleeping, your brain was still working. And so, you know, as I said, it didn't turn off. So it sounds like you're very strict with your calendar. sounds

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (54:51.214)
Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (55:01.294)
Also, little buzz, 4.45 p.m. It says wrap it up. It's my little reminder. And at five o'clock, it says close your laptop.

MIGHTY MERP (55:09.235)
Uh-huh.

MIGHTY MERP (55:13.76)
And when you close it, just for all those lawyers out there, you don't go on your phone to go keep checking emails and things like that, or you do. Which is good. Do you have your emails on your phone?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (55:24.78)
I don't, I don't, I don't.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (55:31.054)
Yes, but not on the front screen. I have to deliberately swipe and then go into a second folder to find email. that means that the little notifications with the number aren't showing up. My case management software, that's also in a hidden folder. So it's there if I'm in court or I'm traveling or whatever, but it's not in my face so that if I'm answering texts from my husband, I don't say, now I have 82 missed.

MIGHTY MERP (55:43.871)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (55:59.854)
So, you know.

MIGHTY MERP (56:00.32)
Right. But so that's the thing that sometimes people are like, they're done at five. And I do this a lot. I will on a weekend say, I'm just going to go through emails, but there are just so many emails. literally today, I have been the last two days have been either in court.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (56:14.766)
and

MIGHTY MERP (56:22.014)
was in court yesterday morning. There was a swearing in of a new judge yesterday that I was speaking at. So that was my whole afternoon. I was in court this morning. And I, this, this is my pause of the day. This is my break of the day. And I haven't looked at my emails really, but I went in and it was 536 emails from the, now I will say some of them, some of them,

One of the email accounts is like a Comcast account that just is where I, yes. And I will just go in and delete them. But I see the number and I'm like, my goodness, I'm gonna, it's gonna take me hours just to like go through the different email accounts. Yeah. Which is, you know, something I do. And you're like, nope, I turn it off at five, the computer.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (56:55.256)
He counts.

You

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (57:10.541)
Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (57:18.22)
Because I wanted to be clear about what my boundaries and times looked like, because I understand that what I'm doing right now is different than the norm, in my welcome letter to every single client, I express what those times are, what those days are, that they are free to use the client messaging portal to communicate with me or even text message through my case. And I will respond.

MIGHTY MERP (57:41.97)
Okay, wait.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (57:48.562)
on my next working day. Their message is important to me and they can send it if they're up at two o'clock in the morning and can't sleep and it's wearing on them. I'll get to it and I'll see it and I will respond promptly when it's my next working hour.

MIGHTY MERP (57:50.772)
Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (57:56.008)
I say that too.

MIGHTY MERP (58:04.106)
So I say that to my clients. think I might've said this when we talked before. I know I've said it on the podcast is that I'm very clear with my clients that there should never be a communication issue because I also have a digital managing system that they can text their questions to and that we respond to and it goes into their digital file. So, and they can call, they can email.

If they want to talk to me, they just have to call. And if they think about wanting to talk to me at eight o'clock at night or 10 o'clock at night, they can text and say, I would like to set up an appointment with Melissa and my staff will call them back the next day. And they will most likely get on the calendar that day or within 48 hours. And if they just have a quick question.

they can tax.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (58:57.922)
Yeah, I have a self schedule link. You, you desperately want to talk to me tomorrow? Go ahead and pick your time. And the default in that scheduling app also is that there are buffers of time after each appointment. So part of the balance is like a default now, whereas before it would have been like back to back to back to back to back now.

MIGHTY MERP (59:10.805)
that's nice.

MIGHTY MERP (59:17.984)
Right. I still have that. That's, I haven't mastered that completely. My staff sometimes like there's, we didn't know what to do. And I'm like, and I'll say, you hate me. You all hate me right now. And, and I also say to them, you can call my office at any time. I have someone answering the phone 24 seven. And if it's an emergency, I will call you back. Cause they text me, my, my service texts me and I will look at it only because

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (59:27.982)
I'm

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (59:36.909)
Yes.

MIGHTY MERP (59:46.908)
Sometimes I do have clients in the nature of what I do that are emergencies. But I also say, I'm going to tell you what an emergency is. An emergency is the police are at my door and I don't know what to do. That is an emergency. And I will respond to you calling me and like, I just got pulled over. They're walking to the car and I will, I will respond to you.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (59:57.154)
Yes, define it.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:00:16.088)
Right.

MIGHTY MERP (01:00:16.51)
You know what's not an emergency? I want to talk about my case. When's my next court date? When's my new court date? Which automatically gets generated to them. I will not respond anymore. It took me a long time to build up my practice enough to change the way I was doing things. Because most criminal defense attorneys, this is what they do. It's all here.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:00:22.252)
I need a new invoice. Right.

MIGHTY MERP (01:00:44.808)
And I have set it up that it is all digital and I have a staff and they don't need, I don't even give my cell phone out anymore because of it, because I felt like my clients couldn't respect the boundaries. Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:01:00.078)
Yeah, it's hard. The idea that we're supposed to be accessible all time and you're right by nature of your area of law, restraining orders do happen on the weekend. The judges in the family division are not available on weekends. So if somebody doesn't abide by a parenting time order or take the child to basketball, there is nothing that's going to happen on a Saturday or Sunday with that regard.

Unfortunately, he'll miss basketball and we can address it once we file a motion and we wait 24 days. I can say in 15 years, the amount of absolute life or death emergencies that I've actually had to deal with, despite the fact that in my brain, I've always convinced myself that I need to be available 24 hours a The number of life or death absolute emergencies in 15 years, like it's on one hand. And those have been like child abductions.

MIGHTY MERP (01:01:35.229)
Right.

MIGHTY MERP (01:01:57.982)
Right, right, which then become criminal. They're really criminal.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:02:01.102)
Right. Or like really horrible abuse of a child, which then is like a diphous thing and, you know, yes. But even those things like can be remedied by you just hold the child and keep it with the other parent until we get, you know, emergency order in front of the court. That's not going to happen on a Saturday or Sunday.

MIGHTY MERP (01:02:19.914)
right.

Right. So was there anything else you implemented that you wanted to share that would be helpful to people that, you know, feel that they're struggling with burnout and they're listening and they might say, I know you said you did have hire a life coach. You also had a therapist. You put in a lot of hard boundaries. You ended up knowing what you wanted in

a job that would work for you as an attorney in the area of law that you wanted to continue practicing in. Is there anything else? You are now taking care of your physical health because you said we don't remove doctor's appointments.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:03:07.458)
The interesting thing was when I decided I wanted to remain a family law attorney, I said I don't want to be a family law attorney the way I've been practicing. I used to describe myself as I'm high conflict divorce attorney. By nature of my own description of myself, that was stressful.

MIGHTY MERP (01:03:18.528)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (01:03:26.016)
And even your original Instagram and your Instagram handle, which I know is a tongue in cheek, it's I Heart to Boris, right? Which is...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:03:39.82)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I still heart divorce, because I love that people get a new, fresh beginning. There's a lot of people who need it. And for that purpose, like that fresh start and that freedom and that new, better life that lies ahead for them, even if they can't see it at that moment, I love that that exists. Tens of years ago, it used to have to be you had to prove fault.

MIGHTY MERP (01:03:45.715)
Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:04:05.826)
And you had to point the finger and say, this person, you know, was an adulterer or this person abused me, or this person did this, that, and the other. And now we say, I've had Erika style differences for six months. I kind of just can't stand their face anymore and get me divorced. So the fact that we don't further victimize or torment the spouse who wants to get out by putting this onerous burden on them.

is something that I think is important. And there's been buzz about, well, what happens if uncontested divorce goes away? Which is the rumors that were circulating about what may happen in 2025, but it would require so much constitutional adjustment in the United States.

MIGHTY MERP (01:04:51.936)
I don't think that it would happen. A lot of the stuff that people are concerned about, I think it's legitimate concerns, but I also think it's not gonna happen in New Jersey. And that's the reality. Unfortunately, it's gonna happen in places where I think people need uncontested divorces. so, but...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:05:03.288)
Great. Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:05:14.658)
So I kind of like reached this point where I was like, okay, I am going to stay in family law, but I want to expand up. Like I, I'm not going to do DV cases. want to expand upon my offerings, but in a way that feels good to me, which is how I got involved with the amicable divorce network. And I really.

MIGHTY MERP (01:05:32.586)
I was gonna say you did a 180, because you really went from, I wanna use your exact words, high conflict divorces, you did a whole 180, because you really don't want high conflict divorces anymore. So I cut you off, because I think that the change is radical.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:05:42.463)
I cool flip.

MIGHTY MERP (01:06:03.114)
So now instead of high contested divorces, your focus is...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:06:06.7)
Yeah. Amicable and peaceful, well, hopefully peaceful, amicable, fair resolution of matters that are going to keep families out of courthouses and keep their funds and their time and their children protected from the horror that can be litigation. So I became, took the training, became a collaborative divorce attorney.

I finished my mediator certification, so I have now been added to the court's roster of economic mediators so I can help people who have not been able to successfully resolve their divorce matter, sit down with them, either them or their attorneys in them, and try to reach a resolution which will prevent that matter from proceeding to trial. And then additionally, I took parent coordination training, and which I think is such a valuable asset to our courts because

There are the same families that appear again and again and again on the same issues. And that paper, like order, is not holding any weight with one side or the other. who's suffering the most are the children. So a parent coordinator will get a matter resolved and addressed and a binding recommendation made far before that 24 day motion cycle. And realistically, hardly anything's hard in 24 days.

way, way down the road. So families are going to get attention and resolution in a much quicker matter. And I'm so proud that it was me and Bonnie Punderbin and Marla Maranucci who represent this Nijuan when they were so few across the state and trying to serve our communities and serve our judges who this frees up their docket.

MIGHTY MERP (01:07:44.51)
Yeah, all great attorneys.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:07:56.92)
to have cases that really need to be resolved by them gets this off their schedule so that perhaps maybe we don't burn those ladies and gentlemen out as well.

MIGHTY MERP (01:08:08.468)
Right, right. I always wonder, know, so I come from like a very amicable divorce. My ex and we have four children. My kids were a little older when we got divorced. We do Thanksgiving together. We have Passover together. And maybe there was like a very short period of time where it was contentious. And I just remember saying like, we have these four amazing kids.

We have the rest, even though they're gonna be adults soon, we have their high school graduation, we have their college graduation, we have hopefully weddings and grand babies and like, are we gonna make it miserable for them the rest of their life because we didn't, we couldn't figure out how to make it work? Or are we gonna like learn to be friends again and to be able to celebrate them because

If we make it miserable, they're going to pick and choose who's going to come to what. And one of us is going to miss out on things. And it just like, I never understand why people can't get there. You know, like I understand there's a tragedy and it's sad. think divorce is always a little sad. but I don't understand how for the people will say they would die for their kids. They would do anything for their kids. Well, this is that anything.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:09:25.197)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:09:32.557)
Thanks.

MIGHTY MERP (01:09:36.756)
This is not anything, you know? So I think it's great that you and Bonnie and Marlena have stepped in and tried to have these resolutions with the court as well that are not contentious all the time. You know, let the judges handle the cases that are contentious.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:09:58.658)
Yeah, mean, this one has the added burden of taking on Mercer County divorces now. And I've now been paneling as a panelist, Atlantic, Kate May and Mercer cases on top of them.

MIGHTY MERP (01:10:04.213)
Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (01:10:11.55)
I thought we weren't paneling them. Are we paneling the new ones? that, no, we're paneling them. Yeah, well, you know, the benefit of our judges being efficient and getting things done. I get more work.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:10:16.142)
We're pen-liking. Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:10:25.774)
And that's part of the danger. It's like when you're good at your job, then they start throwing other people's jobs on you too. And I feel like that happened to our judges. So again, like to the extent I can help as an MES panelist, try and settle things, an economic mediator, a regular mediator, and now as a parenting coordinator, to be able to take that off their plates is gonna make everything work a little bit smoother. Maybe we can get back to motions on 24 days. You know what mean?

MIGHTY MERP (01:10:53.354)
So yeah, do we know the success rates? I'm just curious of those hearings and statuses.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:11:02.87)
I think we're still operating at about 98 % of matters resolved, divorce matters resolved out of trial. And a good percentage of them do resolve on the matrimonial early settlement panel day. I think that there's a direct correlation between the level of preparedness of the attorneys and the litigants going into MESP to the quality of recommendation that we can provide and the likelihood of them

MIGHTY MERP (01:11:08.458)
That's great.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:11:32.46)
walking out of there today with at least like a verbal agreement and a promise to come back in two weeks to put it through in front of the judge.

MIGHTY MERP (01:11:38.846)
Right, with the idea of if they're really prepared and if it was very thorough, they just have a higher chance of, yeah, yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:11:43.362)
Right. Right. Because information is power. if we, and we're always striving as panelists to also provide realistic, practical means of resolving things and trying to prevent people from incurring more charges. The longer the divorce goes, it's like an adverse impact. The longer it goes, the more unhappy you are.

MIGHTY MERP (01:12:09.232)
Right, because you're paying a lot of money for an attorney to get divorced. And I always say, you know, when they... And again, this is, you when attorneys are telling you to do things that allows them to bill more, but might not get you anything more in the divorce, you know, I just...

you know, is a frustrating, this is a whole different conversation. It interests me.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:12:36.494)
Okay. If my, when my clients listen to this and or watch this, what they're going to hear is you saying the same thing. So like, have conversations with them about what the financial impact of taking one path over another is. I think it's really important to know, like you might get this might not even guaranteed to get this result. If you go down this path and it's going to cost you this, or you can maybe get something a little bit lesser, but you could be done.

MIGHTY MERP (01:13:04.532)
You could be done and it'll be over. remember that I think this is when like things were like eye opening to my ex was that the attorney he was using recommended that they do a forensic accounting of my law firm. Do you know how many months my law firm had been in business at that point?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:13:24.526)
I'm gonna say like six months, two months. Brilliant.

MIGHTY MERP (01:13:30.56)
And I said, he's spending your money, which is our money, because we'd been married 25 years, so everything was like together. I was like, what's he doing? I was like, there's nothing to account for.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:13:38.158)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:13:42.274)
I think two months into me having my own law firm, would have been the value of my laptop inkjet printer.

MIGHTY MERP (01:13:47.872)
So it might've been three months. Like my business started in February, March, April. So it was, it was like around April and I was like, what are we doing? And it really, but people need to hear that. That like, what's the end goal? The end goal is to get divorced, right?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:14:09.002)
One thing I really like about where I'm at now and, and in working with John over at Netsquare is that we also offer, offer like a consulting service, which means like, if you want to file your thing, pro se, that's fine. You can do that. You don't have to like pay us $5,000 to file a motion, but I can guide you and provide you advice or even, you know, keep me on retainer that way. If you feel like you're going to send a really nasty email to your ex, maybe you send it to me first. review it and I tell you.

MIGHTY MERP (01:14:17.589)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:14:37.742)
Not to write it that way if you don't want to restrain the order against you. And a lot of people really appreciate the fact that like when they're navigating that post divorce world where you've got deadlines to refinance the house or to get a quadro qualified domestic relations order done to divide up pensions or you're newly implementing a parenting plan or transportation that they can have somebody to go to and provide them immediate practical advice on how

MIGHTY MERP (01:14:39.856)
Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:15:07.224)
to make this work. And it's been a real joy, like working with people and saying like, I'm not trying to like, know, buy my future vacation house with, you know, your council fees. You can talk to me one time or 10 times or whatever else it is. And I'll give you, I'll be straight shooter. I'll take whatever you have in front of you, review it with you, explain it to you in regular people terms.

MIGHTY MERP (01:15:18.207)
Right.

MIGHTY MERP (01:15:31.765)
Thank you, ma'am.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:15:32.83)
And then you can make a decision. You want to hire me in the future and be your lawyer and battle it on court? Great. You want to go to mediation? You want me to mediate? Great. But it's nice that I will discuss alternate dispute resolution alternatives, even making settlement proposals or going to a mediation or hiring a parenting coordinator before litigating. Litigation is never my first move.

MIGHTY MERP (01:15:40.863)
There you go.

MIGHTY MERP (01:15:53.536)
So do you think changing that mindset of high conflict to mediation and attempting to resolve amicably has also helped with your dealing with your mental health and burnout as well?

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:16:13.642)
Yes, I think it's helped. And it's also kind of brought me back closer to who I was when I first started practicing. I feel like that person was there. And then over time, I got more jaded and angry and then burnt out. But a lot of that had to do with the really high conflict, nasty, evil, hurtful stuff. And

MIGHTY MERP (01:16:36.266)
Yeah. I think when people are working as attorneys and there's a nastiness or an angriness, I think that is a sign of burnout. When you're like, seem bitter or angry all the time with everyone, lawyers, clients, judges. I think that's like a red flag.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:16:43.758)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:16:53.422)
Yes.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:16:57.966)
And if somebody is listening to this right now and they're like, I do feel really edgy. I have been really snarky lately. I, you know, this other attorney told me to like tone it down. Then maybe think about like where, where, where are your feelings? Like, are you feeling burned out? Do you feel like you need to take like a little pause? Do you need to maybe resume therapy or start doing yoga or mindfulness or whatever? Like.

Do you really want people to cringe when they see your name at the top of a pleading and they're now in the case? Is that the type of person or practitioner you want to be?

MIGHTY MERP (01:17:35.241)
Riot. Riot.

MIGHTY MERP (01:17:39.314)
Right, right, because it's...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:17:41.036)
And I hope that anybody listening, hope that nobody cringes when they see my name at the top. I really hope.

MIGHTY MERP (01:17:45.32)
Right. No, I mean, it's nice. There are times that, especially in DV cases, when I see other attorneys and there are times I'm like, yes, like I know it'll be resolved, you know, and other times where I'm like, this is going to be a slugfest for nothing, you know? So yeah, I also, so I'm going to finish up with a question for you of, I guess there's a few. What do you think when you say

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:17:55.47)
Yes.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:18:02.274)
in

MIGHTY MERP (01:18:14.45)
if someone's listening and they're like snarky or angry all the time. So I would think, thank you. I would think that maybe a pause isn't necessary, but maybe an evaluation, like a really internal thought process of what's going on that I'm so angry. I can tell you that I, I know I went into therapy because I was so angry, not at work, but coming home and you know, I had a sick mom and it just was so.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:18:19.95)
Thank

MIGHTY MERP (01:18:43.402)
hard and nobody told me that it would be so hard to be a caregiver to your mother, like to have those roles reverse. And I remember when I went to therapy for the first time, I said, I'm just so angry and I don't know why. So what would you say in the sense of the legal world, if people are feeling burnout, if they're feeling like there's red flags, you know,

What suggestions? I always say you can call New Jersey Lab. That's one. They can also make referrals to you.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:19:18.199)
Yeah.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:19:23.392)
yeah, great advice starting right there with reach out to Lawyers System Program and take advantage. I think it's two free therapy sessions that are available to attorneys.

MIGHTY MERP (01:19:34.74)
the raid, but don't, I think it's the raid, don't hold me to that.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:19:38.36)
The more the better. And look, if you meet with that first therapist and it's not a match, mean, it's back to the way you were when you were dating, like find somebody else and check and see who's covered by your insurance. There are people out there. A lot of therapists will be via zoom. People come up with all these like objections in their head about why therapy won't work or why it will be too difficult to fit into their schedule. And, you know, but it really can fit if you calendar and then.

MIGHTY MERP (01:19:46.144)
Thanks.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:20:07.522)
Think about and examine what your feelings are tied to. For me, lot of the anger, the anger was resentment. And my coach gave me a resentment journal instead of a gratitude journal.

And she asked me to look at my resentments because that's where my boundaries are being crossed. And so maybe if you're not feeling very grateful or you don't have too much gratitude, write down your list of resentments, analyze where those are coming from.

MIGHTY MERP (01:20:40.672)
And also why, I mean, as simple as, you know, sometimes I think, yeah, why the resentment? Is it because you're envious that someone else is able to relax or jealous or, you you're mad that you're exhausted because you're not putting the boundaries in? What's the resentment coming from? So.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:21:05.998)
So definitely think that's a great starting place with therapy and the journaling and, you know, just, just even your first step at like acknowledging that you just don't feel great. the way things are happening right now, the way that you feel when you wake up, like the thought of going to the office, if that's weighing on you, notice that, take notice of it and, and then analyze where's that coming from? those feelings of dread, they start somewhere and they're not permanent.

which it feels like they're permanent at the time that you're in your lowest. But we do have resources within our legal community. We have other attorney colleagues you might reach out to in confidence and ask for their support as well. I'm very proud that I've been able to offer support to some attorneys and vice versa.

Let them know like, okay, listen to this podcast or maybe this is a good book or maybe this is a therapist you might want to speak with. Like we should be kinder to each other.

MIGHTY MERP (01:22:08.778)
We should be kinder. We should be.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:22:10.104)
The last, I think we made a huge mistake in 2020. I think we tried to treat it like nothing big was happening, but a lot of big was happening. And now five years later, we're really starting to see the impact on professionals.

MIGHTY MERP (01:22:29.086)
Right. Well, I think we see the impact on lots of people, whether it's professionals, the kids that also had to go through it and lost a lot of developmental socialization, communication.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:22:44.726)
I'm glad that we're having like, you know, chat and you and I are chatting. saw there's another talk coming up with David Bruno. He's going to be talking about burnout and resiliency and the conversations are good. And I'm glad that they're happening, but it's the actions that come next that are crucial to really banishing this and moving forward in a healthy way.

MIGHTY MERP (01:23:02.492)
Riot. Riot.

MIGHTY MERP (01:23:08.32)
Well, I think lawyers need to feel safe that they can say.

that they're struggling, whether it's burnout or any general mental health issues like depression, anxiety, panic disorders, without fear of losing their livelihood, having an ethics complaint, having, I mean, I think that...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:23:22.99)
Thank you.

MIGHTY MERP (01:23:37.662)
There's a few different reasons why people don't acknowledge it. And sometimes it's denial, but I think sometimes people know when they're hiding it because they're just so scared of what the implications professionally will mean. And when you're the breadwinner in your family or when your income is such a necessity, which is why people, and if you say it and then somebody says, you you haven't been communicating with me, that's an ethics violation.

You know, and I think that there's so much fear around it. I've also said, you know, the difference between there's fear. think people of my age and even a little younger are scared to say it because I think that we're not as comfortable acknowledging mental health issues. think we're getting better at it. And I think we're learning from it. Our kids, I have said, my kids in college are very candid.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:24:11.672)
Yes.

MIGHTY MERP (01:24:36.212)
They say they and their friends talk about what if any diagnosis they have, the medicine they're on, what medicine worked for them, if they were on medicine that didn't work for them, you know, and there is no negative correlation for them about the diagnosis or the medicine, where I think there still is for us. And I think for lawyers generally,

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:24:43.854)
you

MIGHTY MERP (01:25:06.496)
who are a lot of type A, a lot of overachieving people, a lot of people that see themselves one way. And we might be all of those things, but we're still human. you know.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:25:22.259)
Yeah. It's like we were afraid of showing any sign of weakness ever, but being, you know, being open and being honest and being a little bit vulnerable and saying like, I struggled with this or, know, I felt really, really low at this time. I really just hope that it helps other people know that, you know, there are supports out there and that

Even if it's like that dark day, that doesn't have to be your darkest. And it doesn't have to be that way that it continues in your life. And you can kind of switch it and turn it around. It's possible. It's work. It doesn't magically fix itself, but it's fixable.

MIGHTY MERP (01:26:00.746)
Bye.

MIGHTY MERP (01:26:04.478)
Right. And a lot of the fears about their career, the way judges think or might perceive it, those are, these are the negative thoughts in our head. Cause you said it, you said how supportive the court and the judges were that it did not in any way hurt your career. And that they gave you the grace and the time that you needed to be able to come back. And I'm going to say, be a better advocate and be a better

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:26:12.386)
you

MIGHTY MERP (01:26:33.332)
full attorney for someone.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:26:35.97)
I know last time we had talked a little bit about like, well, that's easier to do when you're part of an organization where there's other attorneys, but I'm hopeful that the bar, we can be active in encouraging some sort of, assistance program that would allow people to take the time that they need to get the help that they need without, you know, just leaving their clients in the lurch or,

you punishing somebody in any way. You shouldn't have to close your law firm doors if you need to take care of yourself.

MIGHTY MERP (01:27:09.662)
Right. And I think as I, yeah, and I think as I said, the concern is that such a large percentage of attorneys in New Jersey are solo practitioners. I really think the idea that you said of like attorneys being willing to say that they would step in for an attorney in this area of law to cover court dates, you know, not trials, not, but kind of work as a

someone who will cover for no service, almost as someone who could get, while we still have Madden credits requirement pro bono work, helping out other lawyers. Right.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:27:48.366)
Just hold the line, hold the line, make sure there's no major things happening.

MIGHTY MERP (01:27:55.754)
But that's the pushback from the, from my understanding is the pushback is that concern that clients needs will not be met during that time of a pause. And so it's not, you know, and that, that is a concern, but we can't lose attorneys and we can't lose people because of mental health issues that their job isn't worth it.

Their job isn't worth their life. And you know, I mean, we've lost somebody in the last year, year and a half because of mental health. So.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:28:31.566)
Yeah, well that's a couple months. It's sad and you know, and then you find out after the fact and you say, I didn't even know that person was struggling.

MIGHTY MERP (01:28:41.458)
Right, right, right. And you said when you were struggling, nobody looked at you and said, what's...

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:28:48.248)
Gosh, her dark circles under our eyes are enormous.

MIGHTY MERP (01:28:51.922)
Right. And you were saying that I was like, nobody wants to say that, but I don't know. I have seen people and I've looked at them and I've said, are you okay? You know, not how are you, how are you is different than are you okay? Cause are you okay? Is saying I can see something's there, you know? yeah. So, as I say to my kids for good mental health, drink your water.

drink your water, go out in the sun, get your sleep, make sure you eat, things that I have to remind all my kids, all of these things, and take a walk, because it really does make you feel better, whether you like it or not. yeah. Anything else before we, I do want to thank you so much. I could talk to you, obviously, for another hour, but.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:29:48.472)
Thank you.

MIGHTY MERP (01:29:50.72)
Anything else you think, I mean, I think it is really important for people to know that if they're struggling, you can reach out. You can reach out to me. I know you can reach out to Kristin. And I know that even if I know that I'm not going to have the answers, but I'm going to be able to listen. And I'm also going to be able to connect you with people that are going to be able to help.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:30:00.738)
Yes.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:30:14.368)
Exactly. And with confidence and privacy. We won't have the next episode about who called us. We just know that we're available to them as a resource.

MIGHTY MERP (01:30:18.314)
and privacy. Yes.

MIGHTY MERP (01:30:23.378)
No, but you do know, yes, and you do know that if you, as an attorney, and I think I've said this previously, as an attorney, if you know someone's struggling, you can call New Jersey LAP and make a referral, and they will reach out to that attorney, and that can be anonymous as well. So I think it's really important for us to know that as well. All right, thank you so much.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:30:49.294)
Thank you so much, Melissa. This has been really a great opportunity to share and I thank you again.

MIGHTY MERP (01:30:53.46)
Have a...

MIGHTY MERP (01:30:58.898)
I appreciate it. You have a happy 2025 and may all your goals and boundaries be respected and accomplished.

Kristin M. Lis, Esq. (01:31:07.372)
Yes, absolutely. Thank you.