Just Say No to Searches... and Look Professional

MIGHTY MERP (00:03.515)

So I definitely vacillate between wanting to look extremely professional while I'm in court to wanting to be extremely comfortable while I'm in court. And these two ideas do conflict with each other on a daily basis, if you can imagine.

Thomas Ritter (00:26.56)

I'm sure. I've been to court a few times and I wanted to look good.

MIGHTY MERP (00:28.379)

Comfort? People are going to start thinking I've represented you. I have never represented my producer in court.

Thomas Ritter (00:38.318)

Our relationship is young, counselor. Our relationship is young.

MIGHTY MERP (00:42.47)

There you go. I have to say it does happen more often than not that somebody reaches out and they're like, I need to talk to you. And then I say, I can tell by the text when they reach out or the phone call that it is about needing my services.

Thomas Ritter (01:03.372)

I talk to you about something. I have unfinished business with the state of New Jersey. That's all I'm going to reveal while the tape is running, but I do have unfinished business with the state of New Jersey.

MIGHTY MERP (01:18.093)

I like the way you said I'm gonna finish when we're no longer recording, especially since you have the ability to edit and delete anything out and you still don't wanna talk about

Thomas Ritter (01:29.75)

Yeah, I mean... Well...

MIGHTY MERP (01:31.972)

Yeah, I hear you. Let's not talk about it now, because there's no attorney -client privilege then. So, I'm going to stop you.

Thomas Ritter (01:39.22)

I will do it. Plus,  don't I have to slip you five bucks across the table before we even have attorney -client privilege or is that just from Better Call Saul?

MIGHTY MERP (01:46.35)

Yes, well, you know, I think consultations really, even though there's no money exchange, there's still a sense of privacy.

Thomas Ritter (01:56.185)

that's really interesting. But the way you just described it, you described it as a complete gray area, the language you just used.

MIGHTY MERP (01:58.853)

Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (02:05.66)

So if somebody is calling for a consultation and they're providing me information so I can determine the difficulty of the case and sort of my fees and how it's going to proceed, I say there's attorney -client privilege. I think that the relationship has begun. And I think that whatever they say to their attorney in that consultation is protected, which is why, so.

With that being said, if they don't retain me, it can still create conflicts if co -defendants want to reach out to me. So if I meet with a client and they say, it's not me, it's not me, but it's Thomas Ritter who's guilty, that is confidential. If you called me, I would say I can't represent you.

Thomas Ritter (02:42.446)

Sure.

Thomas Ritter (02:56.79)

Okay, so you, that seems...

MIGHTY MERP (02:57.403)

So I do think there is, and that's why in family for attorneys that handle divorce, I've heard that people sometimes will make appointments with five local divorce attorneys and do the initial consultation, and then those attorneys are conflicted out of the case. So I would say even for the consultation, it creates an attorney -client privilege.

Thomas Ritter (03:23.918)

That's probably just cleaner too, to do it that way. Just a cleaner line in the sand for everybody involved, even if it does become inconvenient because somebody's running around town speaking with every freaking lawyer in the phone book, which is just, it's kind of a dick move.

MIGHTY MERP (03:40.412)

Yeah, sometimes they do that.

Yeah, all's fair in love and war, right? Don't they say that?

Thomas Ritter (03:47.768)

Yeah, no lies, no lies.

MIGHTY MERP (03:49.758)

Yeah, so, but yeah, I love our conversations. So we're starting season four of Mighty MERP

Thomas Ritter (04:00.94)

Yeah, I'm excited to be back in the saddle. We've got new back end tools to use that we can flex a little bit and you've got a whole new list of guests. you have a theme or anything going on? What's your feeling and what's your projection for where we want to go and what we want to do?

MIGHTY MERP (04:22.677)

Well, I'm excited about the guests and ideas that we have lined up. You know, we've already taped one which is continuing the theme of mental health and lawyer wellness. And I think that's always gonna be conversations that we have.

especially because I love talking to attorneys and I think that the reality is we have really tough jobs. We're dealing with other people's problems. And so I think lawyer wellness and wellbeing will always be there. But I also think we're gonna focus a lot on individual type cases, complex cases, sort of...

Talking to experts in different areas, I have an expert on domestic violence, intimate partner violence, who has testified as an expert in New Jersey numerous times. We're going to focus on what people considered battered women syndrome and battered women defense and sort of how that plays out in the courts. I have another expert who

is involved and has handled cases where nurses and medical professionals have been charged criminally. We have a podcast coming up where we're going to talk with Rich Lamora and I are going to have a great conversation about resolving cases, whether it's in civil or criminal court. Kind of the factors that weigh in on why cases don't go to trial, why cases do go to trial. I think that

What's always printed in the newspaper about cases is not really, it's such a small sliver of the reality of what's going on. And it's sort of a behind the scenes look with lawyers of how we resolve and why we resolve cases. And I think it'll give some insight to.

MIGHTY MERP (06:20.257)

kind of the general public who are interested in law, criminal matters, you know, there seems to be a high volume of people that are really interested in criminal cases and kind of their input about why they're either in every case, I'm going to say it like this. I know you know what I'm talking about. In every case, if you look at a news story and then a sentence is written about what the individual was sentenced as, and usually those

clips from that are reported in papers are coming from a prosecutor's office or the attorney general's office it's their it's their news release but if you look at the comments there will be as many people saying that person should have been sentenced to a greater sentence and just as many people saying that sentence is too high and that person shouldn't have been sentenced that way so we're going to kind of delve into

sort of the nuances of that.

Thomas Ritter (07:20.206)

my God. That's... I will say this. Nobody has any business saying anything. I way over comment. I way over speak. I guarantee I spend no less than 10 hours a week outside of recording, outside of my clients, reading case law, listening to lawyers.

I do more homework than anybody I know who isn't a lawyer and I've got no freaking business opening my mouth. It's so bad and people don't know shit. It's like learning about the Kennedy assassination for me. I used to think I knew stuff about it. Now I've read 30 books in two and a half years and now I think I know this much.

MIGHTY MERP (07:58.135)

Right. And here's, yeah.

Thomas Ritter (08:15.278)

I've read 30 books and now I know this much. used to be like, I know this much. It's the same thing with legal. if you're in, I'm mostly looking at criminal, criminal, criminal.

MIGHTY MERP (08:15.468)

Right. So I always... Yes. Right.

Thomas Ritter (08:26.056)

Mostly, I really like some intellectual property stuff too. Some of that's really fascinating. But to your point, it's what people get interested in tends to be criminal. But to them, it's just the same, it's true crime. True crime is the number one like media intake other than music maybe. And it's podcasts, it's movies, it's YouTube, but true crime. So they're not drawing a line between these true crime stories and talking

about that and a real legal conversation. And those are two different ballgames.

MIGHTY MERP (08:58.169)

Right, and so they're two different, and when people look at, so what I always say is that when I read an article and there's a resolution to the case, I'm always, whatever the sentence is, there is so many different factors, strength of the case, and.

And also the jurisdiction, each jurisdiction, New Jersey has a lot of mandatory penalties on certain offenses that people don't understand. And so they might think a plea is a high sentence on a case and it's usually lower than the mandatory. There's nuances on that. And so I'm gonna talk to Rich about those nuances.

We're also going to talk about the civil side as well because I don't handle civil cases at all and it is interesting, you know, people call me, I don't know if you have this and they ask me about whether they have a civil case or not and I'm always, my response is I have no idea, you know, and I always say it sounds like you might have something but I have to refer out and then what civil cases really go to trial and it's the same idea of me not understanding those nuances.

But I think you know I've had some high profile cases and they've resolved in the last year and I think people don't understand why they resolved the way they did.

hearing it from the personal standpoint, you know, I think will be intriguing and interesting to people, a sort of the behind the scenes conversation. But I am going to segue into something else you said. You said you're interested in intellectual property.

Thomas Ritter (10:53.058)

Yeah, I find it pretty fascinating.

MIGHTY MERP (10:56.689)

So my segue into that is the exciting news that Mighty Merp logo has been has been trademarked. We're trademarked. And yeah, we're grown. We're like the little engine that could. We think we can. We think we can. So yeah, so I'm really excited about that episode. I have one or two people lined up for some crazy courtroom stories, maybe some.

Thomas Ritter (11:04.177)

yeah.

Thomas Ritter (11:11.224)

That's awesome.

MIGHTY MERP (11:26.021)

stories of lawyers fighting in the courtroom. It's always fun when the lawyers start behaving badly, right?

Thomas Ritter (11:32.831)

It's fun for me.

MIGHTY MERP (11:36.302)

And then, you know, I was, I know you mentioned that we haven't recorded in a while, you know, it was usually at the end of my seasons. I think I've always done either a recap or sort of a year in review or just even a nice conversation with Meg as our season finale, right? Has that been the case?

Thomas Ritter (11:56.79)

Yeah, yeah, you did that last time too, which was that was that was like February or yeah, you you wrapped up after the new year this time, I think.

MIGHTY MERP (12:07.858)

Yeah, I think it was a little abrupt. had a few people. were, I think we kind of recorded into February and we didn't have that final episode. talking about lawyer well -being, you know, I personally had lost my mom in March unexpectedly, who I'd been caring for. I think you know, she had dementia, but she should not have passed away. She ended up having an infection that unfortunately,

caused her to pass and I after that just couldn't really didn't do anything with the podcast and was kind of on triage mode with everything. So took the summer to recoup and that is why we are ready to return. New season.

Thomas Ritter (12:53.587)

We're back with a trademark and a vengeance.

MIGHTY MERP (12:58.032)

trademark and a vengeance. There you go. So yeah, so I think that's all the...

Thomas Ritter (13:02.594)

That'd be a good title for an intellectual property podcast. I'll write that down.

MIGHTY MERP (13:06.22)

There you go. Maybe I'll see if I can find someone who can educate us. funny story with the Mighty MERP podcast trademark. have my one of the twins, one of my boys is at Rochester Institute of Technology. He's a computer science major gaming app, some computer fancy title.

He helps me with my logo and my Photoshop stuff a lot because there's lots I can do. I can't do that. And so I sent him the Mighty MERP logo and I also sent him, I have it connected to my law office logo as well and said, hey, Daniel, can you, when you have time, put the trademark, you know, the R circle.

after Merp on the Mighty Merp podcast because it's been trademarked. And he said, yeah, sure. And then an hour later, he said, I'll do it later. And then he texted me and he said, are you federally registered as a trademark? Which I thought was so funny that my kid was like checking to make sure that I legally,

had the trademark done correctly before he was willing to actually put the trademark logo, signature on my logo. And I had to send it to him, which I'm going to, let's see if it's like right here that I can show you. Hold on. I had taken a picture of it to say, yes, I am officially,

According to the United States of America, there's the seal trademarked.

Thomas Ritter (15:02.892)

That is funny.

MIGHTY MERP (15:05.173)

Yes, that my son wanted to check with me to make sure that I did it legally correct before he did it. So, yeah.

Thomas Ritter (15:15.854)

And we're recording on Friday again, right? We've got something.

MIGHTY MERP (15:21.246)

Yes, yes, we are going to be talking about the case I handled where I had a nurse accused of manslaughter for accidentally hanging the wrong IV bag.

Thomas Ritter (15:22.146)

Alright, cool.

Thomas Ritter (15:38.487)

that, yeah, that.

MIGHTY MERP (15:38.615)

And we are talking to the expert that was used in that case.

Thomas Ritter (15:43.49)

Well, that's a ugly story, but I mean, that's like.

people make mistakes. Like that's just a terrible thing to hear because you have to imagine no nurse ever wants to hang the wrong IV bag. I just kind of cringe because I'm thinking, good lord, I've made mistakes way sillier than that in my life. Way sillier with way less repercussions.

MIGHTY MERP (16:02.125)

Riot.

MIGHTY MERP (16:08.844)

Right.

MIGHTY MERP (16:12.899)

Right, and it is interesting if you do the research, I've listened to other podcasts on this when other nurses similarly situated in other states were accused and sort of, it's never a one person problem. It is a systems failure on so many levels and that's what happened in this case and it's usually, you know, in the end,

It's easy to blame the last person who touched the item in question, but it is usually a systems error of multiple failures that occur prior to the last act occurring.

Thomas Ritter (16:57.61)

Even when you watch those stories on TV, when it's medical, it's funny when you mention that the first thing that popped into my head was somebody's got bad handwriting.

MIGHTY MERP (17:08.793)

Mm -hmm.

Thomas Ritter (17:09.538)

That's the first, and I don't know if that has anything to do with your case, but the first thing, you're like, she hung the wrong IV bag. I'm like, somebody's got bad handwriting. And I'm probably wrong in this instance, but I feel like I've heard so many stories about accidental death in hospitals that multiple times it went back to somebody's handwriting that wasn't the last person in the chain.

MIGHTY MERP (17:18.423)

Right. Right.

MIGHTY MERP (17:28.122)

Right.

MIGHTY MERP (17:34.937)

Right, right, and then who do you charge? Is it the last person? Is it the hospital? Is it the facility? Is it the fact that, you know, in this case there was a nurse who put an IV bag in a main refrigerator that should have been in a locked refrigerator. Was that person charged? No, you know, and then...

New Jersey's different, again, from other states, because other states have negligent homicide and New Jersey doesn't. So it's a higher legal standard. It's a reckless is the lowest standard, you know. So that reckless is, you know, a conscious disregard.

And the best example I always give is a vehicular homicide when someone consumed alcohol. Because we all know what happens when you consume alcohol and get behind the wheel of a car. So it's a conscious disregard of a substantial risk.

Thomas Ritter (18:36.202)

Yeah, the difference being you didn't know there was a bag that didn't belong in that fridge to begin with. your failure to recognize it may be a failure, but it's not like a willful disregard category of failure.

MIGHTY MERP (18:42.287)

Right, cause you didn't put it there, somebody else put it there! Yeah, so...

MIGHTY MERP (18:54.471)

Right. And it's interesting because where the medical staff and the nursing organizations fall on this is obviously to protect their staff and also to ensure that there's not a chilling effect in reporting. So I'm going to talk about this in more detail, but there's a case in Tennessee where a nurse was prosecuted for administering the wrong medicine.

and she was prosecuted under a negligent homicide statute. And when the woman died, who was an elder woman, and they didn't know the cause of death, it could have been initially just cardiac arrest while she was waiting to get an MRI. And the nurse actually self -reported it. She said, my goodness, I think I might have, now that I'm thinking about it, I might have given the wrong medicine, the wrong medicine was dispensed, and I gave her that medicine instead of.

the medicine that was prescribed. And without, so she self -reported, so there could have been an inquiry in the hospital to see where the mistake is, which is what normally happens, so the mistake doesn't occur again. And based on her being honest about what occurred and alerting the staff that it might have been a medical medicine accident.

then she was prosecuted for it. And again, that's a case in Tennessee that I think the woman was convicted in 2022.

Thomas Ritter (20:26.978)

Ooh, convicted.

MIGHTY MERP (20:29.416)

Yes. Yeah. So.

Thomas Ritter (20:31.01)

Well, it comes down to details. I'm not judging. Could be a perfectly fine conviction based on the facts.

MIGHTY MERP (20:37.071)

No, I think it's a really, you, again, I don't know all the facts, but when I listen to all the other mistakes and errors that occurred, and you're thinking why was the hospital not prosecuted? Why wasn't the supervisor not prosecuted? Why wasn't, you know, it's really that last person, that's really, you know.

Thomas Ritter (20:58.574)

Well, yeah, that's what I didn't think in this instance was they're coming out and self -reporting, probably feeling like, well, I'm just a part of this process and something went wrong. We should talk about it versus I'm the very last person, so they're 100 % going to blame me. Like that probably isn't the mindset. It's like, I'm part of this chain of command and this chain of process. And it went wrong.

MIGHTY MERP (21:20.168)

Right. Right.

Thomas Ritter (21:27.2)

look look it went wrong I think versus no I'm the last one to touch the ball so they're going to put it all on me no matter what.

MIGHTY MERP (21:30.354)

Right.

MIGHTY MERP (21:34.388)

Right, and we're talking about situations where it's a true accident, it's a true mistake that occurred. We're all on the same page that if there's like a crazy psychotic medical person, doctor, nurse, or so forth that's hurting patients, they're going to, nobody has a problem about prosecuting that and about those individuals being convicted. We're not talking about those cases. We're really gonna have the conversation of an accident, a mistake.

you know, which occurs and you know, which will, you know, as much as we try in each field to make sure that those mistakes don't occur, you know, in medical fields, we don't want the mistake of wrong medicine or anyone to be injured because of a mistake. In the criminal world, we don't want anyone convicted that really is not guilty. We don't want anyone sentenced who is innocent, right? I mean, we want those mistakes removed, but

At the same time, we don't really prosecute people for those mistakes, usually.

Thomas Ritter (22:38.348)

Yeah, what's funny is if you then dig into the other side of the coin a little bit and you look up the nefarious actors who are nurses, like the serial killer nurses, what you find inevitably is that it was the hospital who didn't want to report. Because those types of people, the people around them, start reporting like bananas and hospital administration tends to sweep it under the rug, send them to the next hospital to continue their diabolical schemes.

MIGHTY MERP (22:57.354)

This is...

MIGHTY MERP (23:06.145)

Well, I can think of other organizations that have done similar of like just moving people, but I'm not gonna, not an expert in that area, so I'm not gonna, I know, I know, I know. I know, so.

Thomas Ritter (23:14.742)

I can think of a couple different types of organizations that do just that very, very type thing. Yeah. One of them is, I was just reading this morning about a guy who's not allowed to be a police officer in state X, but it doesn't say he can't be a sheriff.

Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (23:34.829)

See, New Jersey, so I would say to you, New Jersey has closed that loophole because if, at least in a criminal realm, if you have lost your ability to hold a position of public office, and it lists all the areas, you can't have a job in public office, you know? Yeah.

Thomas Ritter (23:56.054)

Yeah, this wasn't Jersey.

MIGHTY MERP (24:00.087)

Yeah, I can imagine. So all very interesting. But I'm looking forward to a great season four. And, you know, as always, still looking for those crazy courtroom stories.

Thomas Ritter (24:15.052)

Yeah, we'll im -

Thomas Ritter (24:21.429)

I didn't get it.

MIGHTY MERP (24:21.687)

You should post it on LinkedIn again. I post it on LinkedIn, but you should share my post about the crazy courtroom stories on LinkedIn.

Thomas Ritter (24:32.034)

which post about crazy courtroom stories.

MIGHTY MERP (24:34.879)

I posted recently, like a week or two ago, about looking for crazy courtroom stories still.

Thomas Ritter (24:39.598)

I'll repost that. Yeah, 100%. I'll find that and repost it.

MIGHTY MERP (24:44.479)

Okay, it was maybe two weeks ago.

Thomas Ritter (24:46.812)

you don't post like a maniac, I can find it.

MIGHTY MERP (24:51.149)

I don't, I go in ebbs and flows. You know what, I think I'm gonna try to start recording or posting something every day and I might start trying to record and post TikToks every day. Like one to two minute, like, what do do if you get stopped by the police driving? How do you answer their questions? What do you not say to the police?

I can't tell you how many people just admit what they did wrong. Don't admit what you did wrong!

Thomas Ritter (25:26.307)

that makes me so angry.

MIGHTY MERP (25:28.633)

When the officer says, you know why I pulled you over? Don't say, yes, I ran that late. The answer is no, officer. I have no idea why you pulled me over. Actually, the answer is no and then zip it. you know, talk less.

Thomas Ritter (25:47.682)

Yeah, I've got a threshold. I've definitely admitted to tickets just because I have a certain level of not give a shit. Like if it's an out of state ticket or something, if I'm dead to rights, like almost I would. I don't know if I'd feel good fighting something totally minimal. You know, I almost like I don't know what who ingrained that, but there's there's a level up to.

where I almost just feel better like being honest. yeah, kind of like.

MIGHTY MERP (26:24.304)

Like owning, owning. Like I'm gonna own the speeding ticket, but I'm not gonna own the DUI. I mean, where do you draw the line?

Thomas Ritter (26:32.472)

Well, I don't know. don't really, I don't, thank God I never had to face that conversation because I, God, being drunk, you probably don't do the right thing at all. I mean.

MIGHTY MERP (26:43.757)

Yeah, I don't know. think that, you know, so I would say that it's just...

MIGHTY MERP (26:56.185)

I'm gonna say it like this. The police have a lot of power and you can be respectful and you can be polite without giving up your constitutional rights. They're not the same exact thing. They have a job to do and...

I get that. And in the scheme of things, sometimes a speeding ticket isn't a big deal. But even basic where my client says I was doing 79 and they wrote me a ticket for 93, it's a big difference in a ticket. But I have a client who is like, are you sure you clocked me?

Thomas Ritter (27:27.426)

I'll fight that, sure.

MIGHTY MERP (27:35.068)

I was doing 79 and I'm like, well, you just admitted you were doing 79. You know what I mean? Like, and they think they're helping themselves, you know? And I don't necessarily think it's helping, you know? You know?

Thomas Ritter (27:49.144)

Well, to your point in bringing up constitutional rights,

I do, it's funny, if you've got me dead to rights for something, it's like I have no problem admitting to what I've done wrong. But to your point, only if I've done something wrong. Like otherwise, I don't even, I'm not gonna produce ID. I'm not gonna answer your questions. Like if somebody's fishing,

MIGHTY MERP (28:21.426)

Well, you have to, you have to in a car, give them your license, your ID, your insurance. Okay, you have to do that in the car.

Thomas Ritter (28:30.754)

Fair, okay, say it's a DUI stop in Florida. I'm not even gonna roll my window down, Merp. I'm gonna hang my shit out the window in a plastic bag with a note pointing to the statute that says they have no effing right to anything because there's no probable cause. There's not a, these unconstitutional, like.

MIGHTY MERP (28:52.722)

They don't need probable cause to stop you, they need reasonable suspicion. You mean DUI stops, like... -huh.

Thomas Ritter (28:58.218)

Either or, I'm talking about checkpoints. I'm talking about unconstitutional checkpoints of any kind. That's, I'll go hyper...

MIGHTY MERP (29:05.768)

But I don't think the courts have ruled those checkpoints are unconstitutional, Tom.

Thomas Ritter (29:10.915)

no, they haven't. No, of course they haven't. But have they re—

MIGHTY MERP (29:13.94)

So you can't the position that you, I'm just saying, you can't take the position that you know the law more than the courts or the police because I would say to you it's not the fight to have it on the street. I would say if you want to challenge the constitutionality of a DUI checkpoint

which I think you're going to lose anyway. But if you want to fight it and you want to pay an attorney to fight it, then I want you to be the choir boy of stops and compliance and cooperation. I want you to be the ideal defendant and not the, you know, defendant who gave the police such a hard time that nobody wants to rule in your favor because for lack of a better way of saying it, you are

Thomas Ritter (29:51.544)

Sure.

Thomas Ritter (30:04.366)

100%.

MIGHTY MERP (30:07.027)

just an asshole. And I have clients that when they come in and they have 10 tickets and not the usual two to four tickets, I gently say to them, so you gave the police a hard time, you know? And if I have a good rapport with them, I might be like, this is called an asshole tax. You were an asshole. So they kept adding tickets to your...

Thomas Ritter (30:19.158)

You know what happened.

You know how that went.

MIGHTY MERP (30:36.628)

to your case. So my point is, that as much as you're like, I'm not going to comply and cooperate, I would say to you, no, I want you to comply and cooperate in like hand your license, registration, insurance. I don't want you to say anything. I just want you to hand it over. You know, I want you to do what you have to do for us to fight it in court. It's like, I'm going to give a different example than DUI. Okay. When my kids got their driver's license.

And I say this to all young people especially, kids that, you they have kids coming in and out of their car, backpacks in and out, you know what I'm saying, like they're carpooling and so I said to them, I said to them, you know, the police, I said this to my kids, please stop three types of drivers.

Thomas Ritter (31:15.779)

good God. Yeah, that makes me nervous already.

MIGHTY MERP (31:29.707)

They stop drivers in this area because they're driving while black, they're driving while Hispanic, or they're driving while they're young. Okay? Those are the three. And at the time, marijuana was still illegal in New Jersey. And I said...

If the police stop you for any reason, you are polite, you don't say anything other than, here's my license, insurance, and registration. If they say, do you know why we pulled you over? The answer is no. And if they ever ask to search your car for any reason that they can give you or no reason at all, the answer is no. And it's not a no, you don't have probable cause, no, you don't have a reason to search my car.

No, you can't because I said so. It is just no. And their follow -up question is always, what happens when the police say why? And I said, your answer is, I don't know why, but my mom told me the answer is no. That is it. And then they are going to say to you, we will tow your car. And you say, if that's what you have to do.

Thomas Ritter (32:33.144)

Perfect.

MIGHTY MERP (32:44.043)

If they say, we're gonna get a warrant, if that's what you have to do. And they'll say, well, if you just let us search your car, you won't have to get a warrant, you won't have to have the car towed. And the answer is, no, I will not consent. And again, you keep putting it back on me. Don't say I'm a lawyer, don't say...

I'm a criminal defense, don't say anything other than no, my mom told me to say no. I don't know why. And that is it. And the answer for that is, you have people coming into your car, you don't know what they left in your car. I know you. None of you are cleaning this car out. You guys are all slobs. You don't know what's under the seats of the car.

And God forbid someone left drugs in your car or they left something else that's illegal. You will be responsible and you will have ownership to that whether you like it or not. So if they have probable cause, they have probable cause and they'll get a warrant. If they don't have probable cause, they're not gonna get a warrant.

we're fighting it in court no matter what. Either way, if something is found in your car, the only place for us to win is in a courtroom. So I would rather you be, again, the poster child of a defendant, right, who was cooperative, who was kind, respectful, but still honored your constitutional rights.

Thomas Ritter (34:21.506)

That's perfect advice. There's so many people just, no matter what, no, no, no, no matter what, as soon as you say yes, you just opened the gates of hell on yourself in terms of them fishing now. It's that's, that's so yeah, everybody should teach everybody that. And really it is, it's

MIGHTY MERP (34:24.323)

Yeah.

Thomas Ritter (34:46.54)

I know, I'm a little, I find it offensive to not protect your constitutional rights. There's a lot of dead people in Arlington right now who gave their life for your constitutional rights. And I find that when people say things like, I don't care if the government does surveillance on my phone calls, I don't do anything wrong. You might as well go, go desecrate half the graves in Arlington if you have that opinion. You might as well take a shit on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. That's how offensive it is to me that you don't

MIGHTY MERP (34:57.007)

Yeah, yeah.

Thomas Ritter (35:15.438)

care about those rights. It creates a visceral contempt within me that people say things about giving away their rights. I...

MIGHTY MERP (35:26.831)

Right, and do you know how many clients say to me, I didn't think I had anything to hide. And that's why I talked to the police or I answered those questions. And unfortunately, you know, when I get the reports of the conversations, you know, I only get the parts of the conversation that hurts my clients, you know, so that's unfortunately in the report until I listen to the full, the important part.

Thomas Ritter (35:47.656)

yeah. The important part.

MIGHTY MERP (35:54.042)

The part that supports the state's narrative, not the actual full story. The other thing is, the officers are supposed to tell you that you have a right to refuse on a consent search, but they don't tell you that until you're signing the paperwork. So they're saying like, you know, we're gonna tow your car, we're gonna be able to search it anyway, we're gonna get a warrant.

what they're not saying normally until you actually sign the consent is you have a right to refuse. And if they said it initially, which is what you're supposed to be telling an individual, I'm asking consent to search the car, you do have a right to refuse. That's not how it's come, it's never coming out like that. Because if you heard that from the beginning, you would say, I'm gonna take my right to refuse, thank you, right?

Thomas Ritter (36:49.132)

Yeah, it's almost like the reverse where it's like when you can say anything you want to somebody, but then if you use the word but and continue, you're discounting everything. It's almost like the reverse psychology of that where they've laid all the but part out first and then they're like, well, you could do this, but they've already almost, essentially those are very, very low level threats is what they are.

you know, to keep you, yes, so that's

MIGHTY MERP (37:19.356)

They are. But if you can't afford to get your car out, if it's towed, if you can't, like, those are the things. You have to pay for the towing. If it's in an impound lot for two days or three days, you're paying those bills. Like, so those are real fears for some people.

you know, it might not seem like a lot of money for some people, but for my, you know, for a 19, 20 year old kid that might, you know, and also the, my goodness, my parents are going to kill me, you know, sort of concern, not.

Thomas Ritter (37:40.046)

100%.

Thomas Ritter (37:52.686)

The vast majority of this country doesn't have $500 for an emergency right now.

MIGHTY MERP (37:58.12)

Right, so those are like real fears as well, Tom. Things that people don't really think about on a daily basis, you know, when they're like, most people say if you don't have anything to hide, why wouldn't you talk to the police? And you know, I could...

I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I can tell you about either false confessions, I can tell you, you know, about, you know, people being under so much pressure that they admit to things just to be able to end the interview. I can, you know, talk to you about how even

innocent things where the officers have, you know, during an interview said, if this happened, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And clients say, well, if that did occur then, and then they answer the rest of the sentence and the report says, defendant admitted, you know, and like, you know, I had one, I think I've talked about the case with Meg. I had one case where the detective said to my client, who else has keys to the car?

Thomas Ritter (38:47.682)

Yeah, this part of the sentence.

MIGHTY MERP (39:00.379)

And my client said, well I have keys to the car and he said, and my sister, and as he says, my sister, the officer says, so you're the only one with the keys to the car. And the report, the handwritten report says, defendant admitted he's the only person with keys to the car. Now the car, we know from reading all the reports, is definitely involved in a shooting.

Okay, so the narrative is my client has to be driving the car because he's the only one with the keys to the car. And it took us almost a year to get the actual recordings of the interview and then we're like, that's not what he said at all. He didn't say he was the only, that's what the report says. But the actual interview, he said, I have keys to the car and my sister and it just, wasn't

It wasn't included in the report.

Thomas Ritter (40:04.312)

Yet that's.

That's just kindergarten coppery. Like that's not, and then, and then how much more are they spending between day one and day 365 for your, your body cam request? Like that's what offends me is we could have nipped this in the bud pretty quick if we simply had the facts, you know, like, yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (40:12.807)

It is, but -

MIGHTY MERP (40:30.762)

And the interview, but here's the thing. In the end, that client spent all that time in jail, and I say this regularly, I call Meg up and have this conversation. The video in criminal cases, the amount of videos has exploded over the years because everyone has body cam, which is good. I am happy that everyone has body cam.

But each case I have has hours and hours of body cam. And I cannot tell you how many times we find things on the body cam that's inconsistent with what's in the written report. And I have an associate. I have two paralegals that are college -educated criminal justice degrees. And then I usually have one to two interns every semester from the local college.

And they're all watching these videos. And I think to myself, how does an individual who has no support staff or limited support staff get through these videos? Because they're hours and hours. One case could have 20 hours of video between five cops. And most of it isn't relevant. But you got to watch it all because you don't know what is relevant and what isn't relevant.

Thomas Ritter (41:49.878)

You just gave me an idea for an app.

MIGHTY MERP (41:55.309)

There you go. Make the money, Tom, make the money.

Thomas Ritter (41:58.592)

upload all your body cam to the app and I'll send it out to people who like to watch body cam. I don't know what their credentials would need to be. But hell, I'd watch body cam for an hourly rate. That would fascinate me. If somebody sent me, if there was an app and it was like, Uber, you've got the time this week for six hours of this. Here's the documentation. Here's a set of facts. Drive around listening to this like it was a podcast and

MIGHTY MERP (42:10.699)

Yeah, I mean, listen, I

MIGHTY MERP (42:26.446)

Yeah, I know, but here's the thing. Here's the thing is that I need it. Yeah. Well, I don't want someone who's not in my office. Maybe I'm too much of a control freak, Tom, but I want to be able to review the discovery. I want to see what's on the body cam. Sometimes I'm able to say to them, I want you to see if the defendant invoked Miranda. I want to know.

Thomas Ritter (42:29.954)

That's terrifying to you. That's gotta be terrifying.

Thomas Ritter (42:39.554)

No.

MIGHTY MERP (42:55.248)

how long my client was in the interview room before he was interviewed. I want to know, you know, the DUI cases, you know, they have all the field varieties on body cam. I want you to watch it. I want you to give me a play by play of each of the fields variety tests and the interaction. I want you to tell me if the paperwork is consistent.

you know, fair and consistent. I just had a DUI case where one of the field's variety tests, my client completed perfectly. And on the body cam, the officer said, you did that perfectly. Do you think that was in the paper discovery?

Thomas Ritter (43:43.848)

I'm kind of guessing no.

MIGHTY MERP (43:47.428)

It was not, it was not. The paper Discovery had her doing the field sobriety test that she didn't complete as they determined successfully and they left out the one that she completed perfectly. And then the end of it is I want them to say to me in a lay person's opinion, watching it, this person appeared intoxicated based on, you know.

or this person did not appear intoxicated because we all know what someone looks like if they're intoxicated, right? Like you don't need an expert opinion on that. So, yeah.

Thomas Ritter (44:18.956)

No, and it's probably, you know, dispassionate eyes aren't going to have any trouble arriving at a conclusion of, yeah, they look drunk, or no, they don't look drunk. There's no impetus to feed you any crap in that conversation. And yeah, I see the value in that. And I do recognize the preposterous nature of what I was proposing.

MIGHTY MERP (44:28.357)

Great.

MIGHTY MERP (44:46.733)

Yeah, no, but I will tell you that the reason why I have college students, undergrad students do this is that one of my kids was working for me during the summer and he's an excellent writer. He's like a very common sense kid and he likes watching TV. I was like, yeah, watch the body cam like every day, you know, and and he was great. Yeah. Yes, but the truth is, that

Thomas Ritter (45:07.246)

That's what I'm saying. I think that would be a really interesting job.

MIGHTY MERP (45:15.28)

I wanna pay a college kid to do that because it's not, I don't wanna pay, like I don't need to pay someone a significant, I'm gonna pay them a good hourly rate, wage and rate, but it's not gonna be the same as what I would pay, you know, someone with an expertise or a specialty, if that makes sense.

Thomas Ritter (45:33.324)

No, know, and I get that, it's not an expertise thing, it's a sober, dispassionate observation. That's all you're looking for.

MIGHTY MERP (45:42.629)

Exactly, exactly, but sometimes I read it and I say to my staff, I'm like, can you answer these questions for me? Because what it is is they're streamlining the cases for me, because I don't have eight hours. I need to look at the memo and be able to say, so I'm looking at everything. Did, you know.

Whatever my questions are, they have to be able to answer those questions. And if they can't, then they have to go back and watch the videos again to find the answers to the questions, which, you know. But yeah.

I like it, I like the interaction with the college students doing it. I think it's really interesting to watch them look at the videos and look at the police reports and see that they're not always matching up. They do sometimes, you know, there are police that do a really good job. I'm gonna say that there are police that, you know, are fair and they're including all the good, the bad, you know what I mean? But, you know,

Thomas Ritter (46:28.704)

Mm

MIGHTY MERP (46:42.651)

I always can find cases and give examples where that's not the case. Probably, I would say too many for the power that they have. That's what I would say. That it should be almost zero, right?

Thomas Ritter (46:45.986)

Well, in any business.

Thomas Ritter (46:56.002)

Well, but looking at just in the business world, the number of people who really dot their "I" I don't care how important of a job. I've worked with a bunch of different mechanics on my truck. And I'll tell you, some of them are uber, uber professional and organized. So I can see where in.

it's going to be the same sort of percentage amongst police. And my guess would be that's not a high percentage because it's not a high percentage with mechanics or podcast producers or whatever. So my guess would be that the really organized detail oriented dot your eyes and cross your T's type aren't doing traffic stops very long. Wouldn't they, wouldn't that be the detective track without like without question. And so then you're

MIGHTY MERP (47:41.983)

Right.

MIGHTY MERP (47:45.866)

Right.

Thomas Ritter (47:47.372)

Yeah, mean, hopefully, I'm hoping that's the detective track.

MIGHTY MERP (47:51.433)

Yeah, I don't know. also think that I will also say this, is that sometimes the mistakes I don't necessarily think are done with malice or any end goal. think some of it is like, so I'll give you the example. The part where my client did the fields variety test perfectly.

I can make both arguments. I could say like, the fact that he didn't put it in there, when I cross -examine him, he's gonna look foolish, and he's gonna look like he was trying to hide exculpatory evidence, right? But I can also, I can also say,

that it could be as simple as he didn't know he needed to put it in the report because it didn't support his conclusion that my client was intoxicated. And that could be an education issue and not poor policing because they were trying to hide the ball from me. know, so, yeah, so.

Thomas Ritter (48:52.854)

Yeah. I can see that. They don't think necessarily in that their job in that report is to provide a universe of information. Maybe they think it's to provide just the information about arrest circumstances and guilt. Like, isn't that what I'm supposed to be doing? Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (49:08.925)

Right, and so that's my point. Right, so my point is a lot of times when the reports and the videos are not consistent with each other, I don't know if it's an education issue or an end goal of, you know, convict at all costs or something in between, you know.

Thomas Ritter (49:30.572)

Or maybe they just don't love to write, so they're only writing what they think they have to write about the crime committed kind of thing. Yeah, I get it. I can see that.

MIGHTY MERP (49:34.262)

Right.

MIGHTY MERP (49:38.675)

Right, right. Yes. Yeah. And again, I would say like, I understand that their job is not, you know, it's easy to critique it. It's like when I'm reviewing another attorney's trial for appeal issues. It's much easier being the, you know, to have the hindsight afterwards to be like, you didn't do this, you didn't do this, you didn't, like, so.

Again, I know that police have a hard job and I don't think that it's nefarious most of the time. I think sometimes it might be what you say, that they're not confident about their writing or they're not good at writing or they don't know that they needed to include it. They're looking at only...

And I've had this conversation with when Mike Fedorko was on, you know, we talked a lot about this idea of like, police seem to be writing reports now that support a narrative that they're invested in versus having a more objective, where are the facts taking us, you know?

And maybe I'm wrong about that. That might've been my two cents, not Mike Fedorko's two cents. He talked about policing has changed dramatically during each, you know, generation.

Thomas Ritter (50:49.826)

Well, he grew up watching fewer cop shows than cops who police today. He grew up with three channels on TV. There's more versions of CSI than that.

MIGHTY MERP (50:55.822)

yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (51:00.184)

Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (51:04.173)

There is. Yeah.

Thomas Ritter (51:04.79)

Yeah, so I mean, it's a whole different, you're dealing with a different species of human being in terms of what they've been exposed to if you're comparing Mike Fedorko to somebody who just put on a badge.

MIGHTY MERP (51:15.417)

Correct, correct. But shout out to Mike Fedorko.

Thomas Ritter (51:19.692)

Yeah, how about it? We get to tag him on LinkedIn now. We're talking about him behind his back. You should get some of your old school guests back on when we weren't doing video. You got a couple fun guests that we didn't get on camera that we could bring back now that we're doing.

MIGHTY MERP (51:24.397)

Yeah. I would -

MIGHTY MERP (51:33.545)

I know, I should try to get, I think Judge Sandson would return. I'm not sure if Mike would return. Mike was like, I was pretty impressed I got him to agree to the first one. I don't know.

Thomas Ritter (51:45.418)

He's got a persona like he's not looking to be on Instagram. Good guest though.

MIGHTY MERP (51:51.522)

He's not, I mean he totally, didn't he say it on the podcast? He's like, every secret I know, it's here and it's gonna die with me. He's very old school. He is as old school as they get.

Thomas Ritter (52:06.462)

and that just makes me want to get him on a podcast. Get him drunk and get him talking.

MIGHTY MERP (52:11.552)

I know.

I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't think you're getting Mike Fedorko talking. But the idea of it is a great story in and of itself. Actually could be the beginning of a good book, right?

Thomas Ritter (52:17.858)

I don't think so either.

Thomas Ritter (52:27.444)

I think so. Man, there's...

I'm just, I find it fascinating. If you brought anybody in to talk about, know, anybody with his pedigree, I'll listen to all day long is what I'm saying. I mean, he's really one of the more impressive law enforcement people I've had the honor to edit on anybody's podcast.

MIGHTY MERP (52:55.664)

There you go. Okay, another shout out to Mike.

Thomas Ritter (52:56.3)

Yeah, I remember the guy's resume. Yeah, I, how many people do you think I can spit out jobs they've had? He's maybe one of the only people from however many podcasts I've produced. was, well, he was Port Authority, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean.

MIGHTY MERP (53:13.536)

authority. was state police, out of state New Jersey State Police. He was part authority. He was, I mean, he was detailed for the governor. He was, yeah, yeah. So, all right.

Thomas Ritter (53:21.538)

That's both big time.

Thomas Ritter (53:27.638)

Man, he'd make a great co -host too.

MIGHTY MERP (53:31.878)

Do you think?

Thomas Ritter (53:32.898)

that perspective, an old school law enforcement perspective on, I mean, maybe that's just a true crime lover in me, but anything to round out the conversation.

MIGHTY MERP (53:41.562)

is probably that. Mike wouldn't really add much. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he'd do it. He's still working. You know, he works at the county now.

Thomas Ritter (53:51.51)

then he definitely wouldn't do it. no! Yeah!

MIGHTY MERP (53:54.18)

No, I'm lucky I got him on it. I'm lucky I got him on it on season one.

Thomas Ritter (53:59.446)

Yeah, that was good stuff. Well, let me know if you can get any of the old guard back that we can get on camera that we didn't before. anything else we should enlighten your fans about?

MIGHTY MERP (54:16.543)

at this point, know?

Got a lot of good stuff and, I don't know. Do you have anything else?

Thomas Ritter (54:27.124)

not off the top of my head. I'll keep my eye out. There's,

I'm so juiced up on criminal law podcasting right now. I actually just interviewed for a co -host position on a true crime podcast. I don't know if it's somebody who's in, I jump on Indeed and do contract work like AI stuff and very little production but.

MIGHTY MERP (54:47.72)

There you go.

Thomas Ritter (55:00.526)

found this on Indeed of all places, looking for a co -host for a True Crime podcast. I think his way of going about it, he interviewed like 60 people. know I'm supposedly, I exchanged email with him, I'm supposedly in the top two or three. But it's, God, just, it's.

I can't believe the cases there are out there to talk about. can't, there's just so much incredibly fascinating stuff and it tends to really be from a human point of view, just horrific because none of this interest is based in a story that doesn't involve somebody's pain. Like it's a sickening, sickening genre in that respect, but it's nobody, none of us.

MIGHTY MERP (55:28.648)

Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (55:46.078)

Well yeah, mean, but

Thomas Ritter (55:52.532)

None of us are insulated from this type of thing. So to me, it's foolishness to live a life of whimsy and ignorance, although it's probably way more fun.

MIGHTY MERP (56:05.138)

I... So what I would tell you, I think the fascination of the true crime... sort of...

focus point of why people really are interested and like it. And it is, it's morbid because there's always some, there's always a victim, right? In true crime. There's always someone hurt. We're not investigating a type of crime where there isn't a victim, you know? And there are crimes where there aren't actual victims. You know, not every crime is a murder or homicide, you know, robbery case, you know?

Thomas Ritter (56:27.276)

Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (56:46.367)

But those are the crimes, those are the type of cases that people are interested in. And I think it's a few reasons why. I think it is a real life puzzle of trying to figure out what happened. Okay? And then I think there's a psychology of people wanting to know why it happened. So what happened and why it happened. And...

I think when you do it on a podcast or a TV show, you have the ability to do that because all the information and evidence that you find is able to be utilized. That is not true in a court of law.

Thomas Ritter (57:32.374)

good point. Great point.

MIGHTY MERP (57:35.649)

And, and in a court of law, there is not a truth that comes out. It is not like a Matlock episode. It's not like... It will never be wrapped up so neatly because there is not a truth. There's not a movie that goes back and replays exactly what happens. There's a version of the truth. There's a version of the truth that might come from a victim or a witness.

and there might be a version that the state is presenting, and there might be a version of the truth that defense is presenting. And then the jury gets to decide what version that they believe in order to determine if someone is guilty or not guilty. But that is not necessarily the truth. Where on a podcast or a TV show, you can look at everything. Everything comes in.

There's no evidence that's suppressed or excluded or not heard. And you have, in some ways, a better chance of figuring it out and solving the puzzle and answering those two questions. Like, who did it and why? And you don't get that in a court of law. And that's what people don't ever understand. My clients don't understand that when I say to them,

Thomas Ritter (58:47.736)

That's a brilliant analysis. Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (59:01.271)

I have concerns about the trial for these reasons and they say, just want the truth to come out. And I say, whose truth though? Which truth is coming? And they don't like it. They really, and they think, and I'm going to finish with this. People think that when I say these things, it has to do with me being concerned about losing a trial. And I, one, I win most of my trials. I'm not concerned about losing the trial for me though.

I'm not going to jail and I'm not going to prison. Like my job is for me to try to explain this crazy system that is not what you see on TV, that you will only experience if you're accused of a crime, of someone saying that you did something really bad. And in the end, there's not really a truth that comes out. And I can't guarantee even

in the best of cases of what happens in the jury room deliberating and what they choose to believe. I just can't control it, you know? And then they decide the truth. Yeah.

Thomas Ritter (01:00:12.226)

That's a great way to explain it. then wait, wait, what you said about which truth, because you're right. The other teams walking up this courtroom steps with their truth in a bag right now. It's not just your story that's going to be presented. That's a really, you know, you're, you're, you're acting on their behalf by enlightening them for sure.

MIGHTY MERP (01:00:34.981)

I try, I try. I hope that when they realize that what I'm telling them, that's coming from almost 30 years of experience, that it's coming from genuine, you know, when I tell clients, even the best cases, there's not a guarantee. And even the worst cases, aren't, I mean, I've tried cases where I'm like, there's no way I'm winning this one. And you know, there's a hung jury or like, you know, and so there's just, you know, trials are.

Thomas Ritter (01:00:37.015)

All right.

Thomas Ritter (01:00:58.081)

I'm sure.

MIGHTY MERP (01:01:04.279)

are difficult, but the point about the True Crime podcast or shows, it's not as much of a chess game of who knows evidence better and what gets in and what stays out. It has more of a possibility of learning what the truth is than I think in a court of law.

Thomas Ritter (01:01:25.228)

Yeah, it's almost more about the info than the process, where a court of law is very much about the process.

MIGHTY MERP (01:01:33.124)

It is.