My Crimes - and making a difference with John Koufos

Transcription

 MERP  

 0:05

 Welcome back to the Mighty MERP Podcast. I'm excited today to talk to John Koufos, who has had an interesting life. I think that's a nice way of saying it right, John.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 0:17

 Very much so.

 MERP  

 0:18

 And an amazing pathway to where he started and sort of some highs and lows and what he's doing now in order to, I will say, help people in recovery. I'm just going to jump right in, John, because I think your story is so neat and interesting. I don't know if it's the right word. That might be a poor word choice for an attorney.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 0:39

 That's fine. I tell people it's a great story. I just wish it wasn't mine.

 MERP  

 0:45

 I understand that, I understand that. So John, in your previous I'm going to call it your previous life, you were a criminal defense attorney. And could you tell me sort of your path and how you ended up there?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 1:02

 Sure, sure. So, you know, I'm from originally from Ocean County, new Jersey, although now I split my time between, you know, southern Jersey and and DC. But, you know, I grew up in a very, very difficult environment. My father in and out of federal prison. In fact, he escaped from federal prison. He was on the run for six years, and I traveled the country at different times with him, living under assumed names as a kid. Mom had her own.

 MERP  

 1:32

 I'm so sorry because our podcast isn't about that, but our but we could do a whole podcast on that, right?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 1:40

 Probably. Probably. 1s You know, my mom was a teenage mom, you know, is a very abusive household. And so anyway, so I grew up in poverty. I was raised primarily in Ocean County, I think, as I said. And then, you know, I end up going to college, you know, a few years after I graduated high school in brick, new Jersey, and they went to law school at Fordham, came back to to clerk in Ocean County, worked at a law firm briefly in Ocean County, great law firm Bathgate, Wagner and Wolf, great people there. Larry Bathgate, tremendous, you know, tremendous lawyer. And I learned a lot from him. But I wanted to try cases. So I was in my 20s. So I opened up a law firm right away and with a, with another law clerk who actually worked at Bathgate. So we left almost the same time. And, you know, when you're 20 something years old, you know, it's, you know, Microsoft doesn't call you up to hire you as an attorney, right? You know, the people in the community that you know, do. And oftentimes they've gotten jammed up for something. So that's how I started my my criminal law career. And I got lucky. I, you know, I, I took to it. I had a lot of success in about a year and a half from when we started in brick. I had another office in New Brunswick, nine cases all over the state. And, you know, I was a very young. I would become a very young certified criminal trial attorney. Um, and I think I tried cases probably in at least half the counties in new Jersey, if I remember. But it was, you know, it was it was a wild time, a lot of murders, a lot of racketeering, a lot of a lot of wiretaps. I just kept getting wiretap cases one after another. And I was, you know, I had no life. So I would actually listen to all the sessions to to figure out if we could do, you know, intrinsic, extrinsic minimization and so on.

 MERP  

 3:20

 So when you say you had no life, it just means you weren't married. You didn't have kids yet, I'm assuming. And you were. That's correct. So I'm going to take you back just a few steps because you describe a very I'm going to say chaotic and maybe trauma filled childhood. And then you sure actually skimmed over the oh, and I graduated high school and I went to college and so. 1s I don't know if the the graduating high school was kind of clean in my mind, but based on the childhood, how did you get to the I'm going to college? Because it doesn't seem like that necessarily was the path based on the childhood?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 4:04

 Yeah, that's a great question. So yes, I graduated high school and and didn't go to college right away. I worked a bunch of odd jobs. And, you know, I worked at a gas station nursing home. I was a maintenance man at a hotel, you know, and I was just like a typical Jersey shore kind of guy, right? Graduated high school, drank, you know, worked for beer money, you know, and that was really all I did. Um, no real direction, no future. And it was a buddy of mine. His father was a police captain in Bloomfield. And, you know, he had taken a liking to me. And he said, you know, just go to college, right? Like, just go to college and, you know, you can do something with yourself, you know, whether it's in criminal justice or something like that. I'll help you in any way I can. So that was like, I forget that I'm not doing that shit. And, you know, I just kept, you know, doing my own thing. Finally, he bothered me enough. And and then I was working. I was working in nursing home at one point. And like that is where as I started to see people sort of last step in life and I realized, like I was wasting mine at like 19, at 20 I, I moved to New York and went to John Jay College and, and I did pretty well there. I ended up getting into an advanced bachelor's master's combined program so you can get both degrees in five years. I further cut that down to three years or actually two years and 11 months. I graduated with both degrees, and I graduated high enough in the class and did well in the LSATs. So I got a half ride to Fordham and then so I went from. So in a matter of three years or 30 something months, I went from like. Getting drunk, you know, at a nursing, you know, after my nursing home job or at a hotel to saying, wait, I'm about to go to a top tier law school and, you know, sort of a surreal experience, you know, from a from white trash to the ivory tower, so to speak.

 MERP  

 5:56

 There you go. Were you. 2s It sounds like you didn't have time to do anything else but study. But were you drinking through law through college and law school or were you? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely not. 1s Absolutely. No, no, I was drinking, you know, almost continuously since 15, 15 years old. And, you know, I just got I was working as well. I would work on the weekends. I was a security guard and I would work in like, it works, two 16 hour shifts on the weekends. And and I do all my studying there, actually. So, um, yeah. But then when I wasn't there, yeah, I was partying, you know, it was as much as I could fit in. Do you sleep?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 6:37

 Back then. You know, back then I didn't I was actually an insomniac as well, which was good when you're trying to get a lot of things done, but I didn't realize I did. As we'll get to later in my story, I didn't realize that, that the toll all this was taking on me. Right. So but at that point. But it worked really well to get through law school and college fast and to to try cases in many cases. Right,

 MERP  

 6:58

 right. It's like you sped through all of that. And it is pretty amazing even to be opening up your own law firm in your 20s. It sounds like even though you started college late, you finished law school relatively young.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 7:16

 Yeah. And, you know, and I think, you know, one joke I made to a governor once, you know, who wanted me to build something for them, I said, look, you know, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day because I wasn't there. Right? So, you know, I'm not going to waste any time we're going to get this thing on the road here. Um, but, yeah. No. So in many ways, I think I ripped through it because I was trying to almost buy time back because I, you know, candidly fucked around for three years. Pardon my language. That's okay, that's okay. I say that it's normal for criminal defense attorneys to actually curse when we're not in the courtroom, and to describe either our clients or our cases or just the stress level, all of it. So, sure,

 MERP  

 8:02

 you were in your 20s, you opened up your own law firm. You're trying high profile cases, I

 JOHN KOUFOS

 8:09

 assume I got my first one. It's actually funny. It's funny because I gotten a few, you know, decent sized cases. And then and I had done a little bit of pool work for some of the public defender's offices, and I randomly get assigned by the or asked to take a case by the Monmouth County Public Defender's Office of a racketeering from a very, very high profile, 1s you know, leader of the Bloods out of Newark, who the AG's office had done a state racketeering and they ventured it in Monmouth County. Right. Obviously, the venues down there because they picked one guy from Monmouth County and you get a better jury than you get Newark. So they sent all these Newark boys down there, right? I mean, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's venue shopping at its best. So I get asked to take the case and, you know, the state had already frozen all this guy's assets. That's why he didn't have his normal, well paid lawyer from Newark. And, you know, he was in the county jail for 700 days or something like that. And there were all kinds of problems in the case. So I brought it to him and I said, look, here's the things that are that are messed up in your case. And he said, well, I'm going to trial. And I said, okay. And so I started a motion practice and the motions were good enough where we were able to get the attorney General's office to agree to give him time served. So he walked out of Monmouth County Jail, like within just a month or two of knowing me. And he actually had no ride. He had no friends in freehold, as you can imagine. So I picked him up when they let him out of the county jail. I drove him to Newark and we started bullshitting and and from there. You know, all of a sudden everyone in Newark sort of knew who I was, right? And all these other areas. So then they start calling this like random guy from, from south, well, central Jersey and that, you know,

 MERP  

 9:53

 South because, you know, as somebody who's in south and I probably wouldn't be driving up no matter what to

 JOHN KOUFOS

 10:02

 to

 MERP  

 10:03

 yeah to. Yeah. Not going up there.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 10:05

 Right too far. Well you know yeah. No it was a long drive but it was, it turned out to be one of the most important drives I've ever made for my career. I didn't know it at the time. And and then from there, I just kept getting lots more cases all around the state. Yeah.

 MERP  

 10:20

 Did you see one when you said you picked them up at in freehold at in Monmouth County? And I just like, like shook my head. And I was thinking, I wonder if this is the difference between a male attorney and a female attorney, because there's lots of things I do for my clients. I mean, I really want to go out of my way to provide the personal service and to let them know that, like, they can call my office at any time, you know, I don't prevent them from doing that. I actually make it so that they can call me at any time. But I would never, ever, ever let a client into my car. It doesn't matter. Nor should

 JOHN KOUFOS

 10:57

 you. Yeah. No. Nor should you. Mean, you know, especially, you know, I think that, you know, the dynamics of, you know, who we serve as criminal defense lawyers, right? You know, you know, you got to be I mean, you got to be able to handle yourself and. Right. And obviously not saying that you're probably not a great fighter, but, you know, you're also probably five foot three and, you know, or something like that. So

 MERP  

 11:21

 you know that I'm

 JOHN KOUFOS

 11:22

 right. Right, 1s right. So, you know, I and I think it's smart, know, if my daughters ever became lawyers, I would. Well, first of all, I try to talk them out of becoming lawyers. And then if they decided to do that I talked about doing criminal defense. And if I couldn't do that, I'd tell them, don't let anyone in the car.

 MERP  

 11:37

 Yeah, no, I hear you. So you ended up, you know, after that amazing, sort of amazing win. And I tell people that it's motion practice is where you're really going to. Oh yeah. And win cases or get cases to the point that you are getting offers that are too good to refuse. But that's right. So this is how long. 1s Um, so you had all this success. You're still in your 20s, right?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 12:07

 No. At this point, I'm in my. You're moving into my 30s. Yeah.

 MERP  

 12:10

 Okay. And you're still a partner with the same person?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 12:13

 Yep, yep. We had some lawyers working for us, and, you know, she'd specialize mostly divorce law. And, you know, sort of the funding model was, you know, let's use sort of the criminal practice and the divorce practice to fund select good personal injury cases. Right. So that way we could, you know, fund those contingencies from time to time. And that's how we operated the firm.

 MERP  

 12:36

 Okay. And how long were you in practice altogether?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 12:41

 Think about nine, ten years somewhere around there.

 MERP  

 12:43

 Yeah. So and and because you had to be certified after seven, you need seven years to be certified, I think. I

 JOHN KOUFOS

 12:50

 think it was five back then, to be honest. Five I thought, but you know, I'm going back. Remember, I haven't practiced since 2012.

 MERP  

 12:58

 So so what sort of happened that you ended up stop practicing.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 13:05

 Sure. So. Well you know, so I mentioned a little bit, you know, about when I started drinking and I was, you know, the very definition of a, of a functional alcoholic, you know, to the outside world, you know, life was good. I was making money, you know, and, you know, uh, things look nice. Um, in my personal life, you know, there was there was not much there. Every time I wasn't in trial, I was drinking. And so much so my law partner, God bless her, um, you know, she. When she'd cover certain cases, you know, if I'd be another court and she'd sign the trial memos, she would literally put trials back to back to back to back if she could, with me, because she knows I wouldn't drink during trial. Right. Um. And

 MERP  

 13:47

 ask, did she know? Did the people around you, maybe the judges

 JOHN KOUFOS

 13:51

 staff? 1s I don't you know, it's interesting, I. I don't think it was a surprise. And yes, most people knew. My law partner certainly knew. Um, and, you know, she tried her best to to to right the ship. And, you know, we're still very close, but she's a godmother to my first daughter. That's how close we are. And, you know, so it was. No, listen, it was definitely no secret, you know, that John was an alcoholic, you know, was an active alcoholic at the time. Um, so here I am, you know, just sort of going through life case to case to case. And 1s June of 2011, I, I'm leaving a bar association event drunk. Right. And 1s as I always drove drunk candidly. And this time it would have near fatal consequences for somebody else. Um, I was drinking, I was texting, I was in a meaningless argument with, you know, somebody on the phone. It was just. It was. It was everything toxic on the back end of a bender and. 1s And the car started to veer to the right because I'm busy being drunk and looking at my phone and doing all these different things. I hear two really loud booms 2s and I see a bunch of dust behind me. And didn't for a very brief period of time. I didn't I don't know what I hit. So I left and I drove to the first police station that was closest, which was man looking because the accident happened, the the my crimes occurred. I committed my crimes in La Villette and I'm very you. You'll hear me correct myself a lot like, you know the the there was obviously a car accident. I hit a pedestrian. Um, but like that was those are crimes I committed. That was just not a car accident. Where, you know, someone, you know, sideswiped somebody that was that was that was were crimes that I committed. So I drive to the police station. The car.

 MERP  

 15:46

 You didn't stop the car?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 15:48

 No. I drive to the police station. Oh. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

 MERP  

 15:52

 I was going to say you didn't stop the car. You didn't. You initially didn't know what you hit. When? When did you mean? It doesn't really matter. But when did you learn that you hit a person?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 16:03

 You know, I think I've gone over this in my head for 12 years now. When did I. When, you know, looking back. 2s It had to be just a minute, two minutes after I left that scene and where I remember being drunk behind that wheel and I'm looking at the windshield. I'm still not looking at the road, by the way. I'm looking at the at the windshield. And it's like, you know, you never you know, you. 1s I'm looking at the the circular break in the window and the windshield and I'm like, Holy shit, I hit somebody, but now I'm not at the scene anymore. The fuck do I do? So I drive to the police station. The next thing I do. I mean, that's what a drunk, you know. It doesn't make sense today, but at the time, it seemed like it made sense.

 MERP  

 16:55

 Well, it's somebody who's drunk, but also a lawyer. So you have, like, some knowledge, right? I mean, you went to the police station.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 17:04

 Yeah. But, you know, and the thing the sad thing is this was this was the the conclusion of a 20 year or the the beginning of the end of a 20 year battle with active alcoholism and some of that undiagnosed trauma we touched upon in the beginning of the, of the interview. And so I drive to the Mandaluyong police station, stop the car there. I leave all my stuff in there, right, because I'm going in. And remember I told you I heard two booms, right? The first was I would learn was the person I hit, the second was in La Villette. They used to have these. There were no sidewalks. They have these raised drains. So I apparently I would learn later I hit the person, then I ran over the raised drain and that becomes important right now. So I parked the car right in front of the police station on Downer Avenue in Mandaluyong Road. Leave all my shit in there and begin walking towards the door. And if I never look back at the car, Melissa, I, I just walk into the police station and and I get arrested in life. You know, the second half of this never happens. But I look back at the car and I see the damage to the car. And. I went into a complete panic and it's not like I did any. There's no great cover up here, right? It was no well thought out, you know, cover up thing. I walked away and I left the car in front of the police station with all my stuff in there. Here's the evidence. Yeah, but that wasn't mean. I wish my thought was that I just walked away. And, you know, I was already having deep, deep depression and other problems, you know, and obviously washed, awash in alcohol. And I decided that I was going to tie a few things up. And I had illegally registered 45 at home, and then I was going to kill myself. That was the plan. And it's so funny because funny, it's a bad word, but it's like, so it's so funny to say now because I can't believe that was my life then. And that was that was a logical plan to me. And I said, all right, well, you know. You know, there's no way I could deal with God forbid I killed somebody, etcetera. So. 1s I stayed on the bender for three more days and towards the third day I started to clear up. My law partner, who I told you about, you know, was was really the impetus behind not killing myself. 1s And then on the third day, I called. I called a lawyer friend of mine. I think it was on you. Well, his father called his father, Don Donald and Jonathan Lemire. I think he had Richie Lemire on the show. Richie's a good, good friend, as are all the Lambros are very close friends are like family to me. They guided me through a very, very difficult time in my life. This time and this time I'm telling you about. And I called Don and I called John, and John and Don came over and I said, look, this is what happened. You know, I'm still probably drunk when I was talking to them, actually, and when they came to my house and I said, go surrender me. And that was the third or third day in or maybe the fourth day in. I said, go surrender me. So, Don, God bless him. He went to the Ocean County Prosecutor's Office, tried to surrender me that nothing to surrender me to, no warrant.

 MERP  

 20:15

 So ask was there a warrant? And I know my mind is behind you on this story, but did you ever call an ambulance or call 911? Was was no there any. So there was no.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 20:31

 Nope.

 MERP  

 20:32

 So. So Don went to the prosecutor's office, and there's no warrant. But. But mean. You know, this wasn't exactly the. You didn't exactly have to be, you know, Sherlock Holmes to figure out what was going on here, right? Like, John's car is sitting in front of the police station damaged. John is nowhere to be seen. And then what happened was, again, I said, I lied my way out of it or let me go back. I lied to delay time. And you know, I had a great, great friend, Melissa, a guy, a a guy who was more like a brother to me than anything else. And he's watching me. He watched me deteriorate for a long time. And, you know, he was concerned about my suicide. And he said, John, he goes, look, just by yourself, I'll say, I did it, you know, till we figure this whole thing out. So I said, sure, go ahead, because I figured I'd be dead in a few days anyway, and then I would just write a suicide note. This is where your this is where your head goes when you have unchecked, when you don't check your mental illness and you try to drown it, and booze and substances and those sorts of things. Right? All these things I'm telling you. Right? Right. None of it makes

 JOHN KOUFOS

 21:37

 sense. No it's not. I mean, that's the thing. But like I said, this was no great cover ups, no crime of the century. So my friend goes in, takes the hit right, says it, says he was driving that night. Right. And and obviously everybody knows he wasn't driving that night. Right. Loomis was saying look, the here's here's John, you know, put the cuffs on him. He's ready to surrender. They don't generate a warrant or anything until it's like a week later. So I'm like, hanging out, you know, waiting to be told when to surrender to my crimes.

 MERP  

 22:11

 Mhm. 1s And. 2s So did you go into custody at that time when? The week of the warrant being issued?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 22:22

 Yeah, I was waiting around and most of my time, candidly, was consumed, you know. You know, desperately trying to figure out if I had killed somebody. Right. So because I didn't know what the status was of the person I had hurt, then thank the Lord. By the way, just because, you know, you know, for the listeners, right. The person, thank God recovered is not in a wheelchair, went on to, you know, get a master's degree and do all kinds of great things in her life. No thanks to me, by the way. Everything I did was make that worse. I nearly killed this poor person. So, you know, God really gave me a blessing as well as giving obviously them a blessing. But, you know, God really made really. You know, I always tell people, if you don't believe in God after hearing what I did right and how this person should have been dead, then, then I don't know what would ever make you believe in God because there's no logical reason that person should be alive. And, you know, it's been a very, very tough thing for me to live with, but I caused it. So to answer your question, yes, on on the following, it was later like a week later, you know, I get a call.

 MERP  

 23:25

 I mean, are you 1s I understand what you were doing for the first few days. The first few days you were planning your end and.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 23:34

 Yeah, going to Bender, right. And doing all that. Yep. And then

 MERP  

 23:37

 there came a time where something switched.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 23:41

 Well, so so partially. Right. And I'm because, like, it wasn't like my law partner showed up and I said, well, suicide's off the table now. Right. Because you're here, right? I kind of told her I was going to, you know, it was fine, right? Because she had, you know, personal experience with the suicide that really affected her. And she knew that she pulled on those heartstrings with me, that I would bite. And because she's a very good advocate, you know, and an even better friend. 2s But. Yeah. So. 2s I wasn't. So for me, suicide wasn't off the table. I just told her it was off the table. So my plans were were only delayed, not derailed. So because again, it wasn't necessarily the, the it wasn't the arrest that I that was the catalyzing event to suicide. I wasn't that wasn't the issue was for years I knew I was an alcoholic, for years I knew I was falling apart. And for years the the way I dealt with that and why I didn't do anything about it was to say, well, I'm not hurting anybody else. So that whole identity was shattered. And, you know, interestingly enough, you know, just sticking with recovery for a second, you know, before this ever happened, you know, I knew I was going down a path so, so bad. I, you know, I, I went to see a judge friend of mine in Middlesex County and I said, look, I'm falling off, man. It was probably April or May and this thing happened in June and or March or April, I should say, because a few months before and he referred me to lawyers assistant, they did such a wonderful, wonderful job. But I was so far off the reservation, right. Like I needed at that point in my life. I needed to be locked in a rehab. That's what I needed with with co-occurring treatment. So the warrant gets issued. They say, go surrender yourself. I show up at the sheriff's department. I, you know, get printed. And then I have bond waiting for me. And 1s we still had cash bail. So they had $150,000 bond on me, which I thought was kind of surprising because it was my first offense and I certainly wasn't a flight risk unless you count going to the grave flight. So in any event, you know, I bonded right out. So I never set foot in the county jail. And and then that began. Uh, well, that was the beginning of the end of my law practice, so I had to tie up the law practice. I had to somehow try to stay sober or, you know, get sober. Excuse me? I had to figure out if I was really going to kill myself or not. I had to, to figure out, like, have I killed somebody? Like, have I made someone, you know, someone could be on a ventilator their whole life? Like, what the fuck did I do here? Right? And the worst part about that and deserve every bad thing that's happened. So I don't want anyone to think that, you know, I'm. It should feel bad for me. They shouldn't. I put myself in every one of these situations. 1s Like every minute you recover what you the shitty things you do become clearer and clearer and clearer and clear. So it's like this. This weird thing where you think, oh, I'm, you know, getting sober, I'm doing these things. And then all the horrible things are now no longer these foggy things you're looking at. They're real. Right? 2s So anyway, so. So I'm wrapping up my law practice and yeah, I'm wrapping up the law practice and, you know, still try. My clients want me still try cases. So I still tried a few cases. I argued one a case before the new Jersey Supreme Court while I was out on $150,000 bond, which I'm, I don't know, that's like the old Barry Bonds, like, home run record with the asterisk, right? Like, you know, it's it's something that might have happened. It might have been like very interesting. But nobody wants to ever have claimed that record. And and then I pled guilty and my I asked Don, I said, Don, get me the get. Just plead me at the first thing. In fact plead me pre indictment don't care. Just get me to plead because accepting responsibility was what was is the cornerstone of recovery. So I knew I could never do that. 2s And I desperately wanted to apologize. But, you know, I was never able to speak to the person I had hurt.

 MERP  

 27:52

 So, John, let me ask you this. Um, were you from the time that you turned yourself in, we'll say processed and then released. Were you in active recovery at that point? Where did you stop drinking? Do you? So I'm going to ask you, this is usually a question I ask all my clients to determine whether I think they're really sober. Do you have a sobriety date of what you is the day you stop drinking? Is it that date?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 28:20

 No, no. The day? No. My sobriety dates. March 16th of 2012. Um, the the the crimes occur on June 17th of 2011, so. Yeah. No, no. Getting sober. Remember, I'm someone who drank if things were good, bad or otherwise. So imagine under these circumstances, I tried, I'd string together a little sobriety. It would. I drink and it would happen again and again and again. And then what happened was, it's interesting enough. I went to a place, Seashore Family Services in brick and and I'm like, you know, I better just go to like inpatient here. Right. So I go there and I tell him I want to go to inpatient. And they do their assessment. And they said, well the I remember they asked, they said, so how many, you know, how many drinks do you have a week. I'm like, no, 80, 90. And I remember the, the, the, the woman at the she was probably, you know, like 21 years old, right. Fresh out of social work school. Right. Getting her clinical out. No, no, I'm sorry sir, I didn't ask per month or every week like. 8090. Right. And basically what they diagnosed me with was like a whole series like Major Depression, all these other psychological issues from probably trauma filled past and it obvious chronic alcoholism. So they said, John, we don't have a bed like that for you. I said, well, what do I do? And I said, well, and I wasn't going to do like the Florida thing or anything. You know what I mean? Good. Do any of that stuff I said, so what do I do? And they said, well, you can start in our IOP program. Intensive outpatient said, all right, let's sign up. So that is actually where things started to get better, because you get a therapist at IOP as well. And I never really had a therapist that I was attached to.

 MERP  

 30:05

 Yeah, I was going to ask whether with the sobriety you address the mental health because so. So

 JOHN KOUFOS

 30:10

 that's actually it's a perfect question because once I started getting that level of therapy, and then I also saw a therapist on site and I would only go to a psychologist. And I'm not I'm not down on anyone who has to take medication for mental health issues. Right. But for me, I was terrified that I was going to trade booze for something else. Right? So I said, I'm going to try to beat this thing without any pills at all. And then it was funny because my doctor, my primary, gave me Lexapro and I took it wrong. I took him and I thought I was sad. They're taking it every day. And he's like this thing, so I'm not taking this anymore. And but. But anyway. So once I started getting that therapy right, then things started to come into focus. So once I get the therapy, it was easier to stop drinking. And then I paired that with AA meetings, lots of them. So I'd be at IOP and AA and times I wasn't at IOP, right. Just to sort of stay grounded. And I was doing well for a while. IOP was a challenge though. IOP is supposed to be whatever it is, 12 weeks or whatever it's supposed to be. And you know, mine was like 20 weeks or something because the I kept pissing hot, right, with alcohol. So God bless them and throw me out. They just said, okay, we're going to start you back at phase one, whatever that phase is. So and thank God the social worker there, there was Laurel DeLuca. I mean, you know, if I if I could ever thank her today, I mean, she changed my whole life. You know, she was a therapist assigned to me. So anyway, so I string together some sobriety, and then, you know, they indict me, which I expected. And then I try to plead guilty at the first court appearance. But state wasn't ready, so

 MERP  

 31:50

 just were clear. You one count indictment.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 31:53

 Oh, no no, no, they charged me. You know, they you know how indictments are. They indict you for things or anything under the sun. They could have indicted me for. So like it was, you know, leaving the scene of an accident, serious bodily injury, aggravated assault, 2s like hindering apprehension because to be a witness tampering, which, you know, whatever. So, um, so I said, look, just plead me guilt, you know, let's just get me a deal,

 MERP  

 32:18

 though. Leaving the scene was what you were pleading guilty to.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 32:21

 We ended up pleading guilty to leaving the scene of an accident. Right? For the crime of hurting the person and then hindering apprehension for lying about it. And then the state wanted to plead a witness tampering as well. I said it's fine because the hindering, the witness tampering. There is no real witness tampering. It was a hindering. They're going to merge anyway. It doesn't. If that makes you happy. So I can move on. Fine. So that's why I. So I did that and but more importantly than that, to be honest, the most interesting legal part of this whole thing to me because just a standard, you know, addict hurt somebody, right? And goes to prison is. The civil piece of it. So what happened was, and, you know, God bless Don lemon. I'm like I said, Don, you know, I want to call Geico and tell my insurance company, tell him everything that happens. I get these people some money, and Don's like, yeah, we don't have a deal yet. You can't be doing any of that stuff. And Don, you know, and Don's, you know, just such a good man. But he. But I would fight with him all the time. I said, listen, I'm not going to because you look, you practice law. You know, the popular wisdom in this cases, in these kind of cases is you drag the civil suit out, you drag it out forever. And if the victim needs money, right, eventually they, they, they relent to a better plea agreement to the prosecutor, and then they get their money. And then you do that. Right? That's that's standard with defense.

 MERP  

 33:41

 Not only that mean as you as your criminal defense attorney, I would say you can't give a statement to the insurance company. Yeah.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 33:49

 Yeah. Used

 MERP  

 33:51

 against you. Like I mean, I have a standard letter to the insurance company that says, you know, because due to the criminal matter, my client will not be providing any statements. I mean, I mean, I understand what you're saying about the effects of the civil, but not even going that far. I'm like, you're not giving a statement. And then, you know, and it's hard because, you know, I'm sure Don still wanted to protect you from yourself.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 34:15

 Exactly, exactly. And, you know, Don, I think every lawyer is like, how many letters have I got to write this guy? You know, this guy's my friend. Why? Why is he breaking my chops like this? Um, but but, Don, you know, I eventually I eventually harassed him enough where he got us settled up with Geico. So they got the whole policy, thank God, before anything else happened. Right? Like before I had a deal. None of that stuff. Right? Because. I mean, I can't build a time machine to stop what happened, right? So this is the next best thing. I just try and do anything I could to to to to help. Right. Um, so anyway, so I plead guilty. Um, and the deal is six years. Three for the leaving the scene, three for the hindering state was going to state 1s asked for consecutive sentences. I had hoped they'd run him concurrent, got the sentencing and run him concurrent. Right. So they

 MERP  

 35:13

 got sentences, right? They

 JOHN KOUFOS

 35:15

 were, they were. But you know, you know the. 2s Well, yes, they were, and I'll just leave

 MERP  

 35:23

 it at. I know this might be too much technicality, but there was no mandatory amount of time. You didn't have to serve, you know. No,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 35:32

 no, no, but the misnomer, the misnomer that every defense lawyer or not, every but many defense lawyers tell their client, oh, you have a three flat. You'll be out in nine months. Like, that's not how the real world works. You have to be very. And I didn't know that I was in prison. You have to be very, very, very concerned about that back number, particularly the higher profile of an inmate you are, because the prospect of someone like me, a high profile gang lawyer, getting parole with no political connections, is, like, near zero. Mm hmm.

 MERP  

 36:02

 So how much you went in on a six year sentence? Yeah.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 36:06

 And then, of course, everybody just told you, right? I'm happy to eat my words at this point, because I go up before the parole board at 16 months, 17 months, and and to my surprise, they let me out. But I know where to go. Um, and God bless the parole board, you know. You know, people complain about the parole board. I mean, the parole board is one of those places of really saved my life. You know, I spoke to them. I said, look, I'm going to be coming out. If you let me out to a whole new world of challenges, I bankrupt. No law license, no home, right? I've nowhere to live. My house was foreclosed upon. Um, I said, I need you to order IUP again because it's the only thing that ever worked for me. And I have no money to pay for it on my own because I have nothing. I'm nothing. Um. And God bless them, they they let me out, and they they ordered me to IUP as I asked. Um,

 MERP  

 37:01

 and your license was suspended at that point?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 37:04

 Yeah. No. Your license, your license is automatically suspended. Uh, when you plead guilty to a felony,

 MERP  

 37:11

 it hadn't been. You're you're presently disbarred, correct? Correct. So that occurred after you came out of jail?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 37:19

 Yeah, it's a really interesting story, actually. So I'll tell you that one second. So. So anyway, so I end up they agree to parole me. I parole out to a law school buddy's house in Hoboken, which is not really where drunk goes to get sober. If any of your listeners know where Hoboken is. There's like 98 bars in a 1.25mi² house, 1.25mi² town. So. But there was a lot of great recovery there. And again, the parole board was wonderful as far as they were hard, but they were so fair and they gave me the tools I needed. I had a wonderful parole officer, a guy named Peter Sandy, who just, you know, really cared about recovery. Right. And so these people who were, you know, just in my life, you know, all were key components to my success. Any success I have today. Um, but no, actually. So I get out in October of 13 and, you know, and I end up at some point in January. I think it was the Star-Ledger ran a story that I was out, and they ran a story about it. And then all of a sudden I get like a Fedex disbarment complaint from ethics. So here I am on parole, going through bankruptcy, trying to stay sober and go to meetings and do all my parole stuff work. 1s And. I ended up representing myself before the DRB and and then I won six two.

 MERP  

 38:39

 The disciplinary review board

 JOHN KOUFOS

 38:41

 for the. Oh yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah. The disciplinary review board. So I won 6 to 2. Um, they agreed to a three year perspective suspension, which would have been like a five year suspension if you added up all the time. But only the Supreme Court, right, can hand out discipline. So Supreme Court takes the case and gives me a hearing. So I knew we had a problem right away, right. That we had to go to a hearing and then had a lawyer for that one, which a wonderful guy represented me for, for free, referred to me by a by a federal judge friend, actually. And the guy did just a wonderful job named Tim Donahue from up in West Orange. And, and we lost by one vote before the Supreme Court. And we're just despite and I joke with Tim, I said, you know, when I did this shit on my own, you know, we were fine. But I'm only joking. Tim did an absolutely wonderful job. And then sort of the joke about it that was, you know, if you add up all the votes for me and all the votes against me, I was like, Hillary Clinton had won the popular vote, but I lost all the votes that mattered. So,

 MERP  

 39:40

 right. And, you know, you do know, like I would say, like once the Supreme Court said they were reviewing it, you know, you weren't winning,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 39:49

 right? It was going to be tough. It was going to be tough. But we got within one vote, right. We got was A42 decision. So had it been three three it would have deferred to the decision below. And what's fascinating about the case is that the we'll talk about it talk about a shitty week. So I find out I'm getting disbarred. The decision comes down February 15th. And like March of March of 15, my first round of monthly payments for my chapter 13 bankruptcy were to begin. So I knew I was never going to have the income I once had or that was in my head at the time. I would never have the same income I would once have, and now I have to pay this and try to stay sober and try to be on parole and do all these things again, all situations I caused for myself. But I'm just telling you what was in my head. You know, at this particular time in my life.

 MERP  

 40:34

 Right? It is a lot. And you remain sober at that time. Yeah.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 40:38

 Oh, yeah. Up till today.

 MERP  

 40:41

 Right. I mean, just it it's just a really interesting and amazing story that once you are dealing with the mental health and the sobriety, that even when you probably had greater stresses at that point in your life, then sure, before, you know, and probably all the hard working jobs that you had prior to college and law school, I mean, you always know how to work. You know, you weren't making the same money, but you know how to work, which is sounds silly, but it's a skill set that some people don't have, you know.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 41:14

 No, it is, you know, the other thing that, you know, I haven't touched on because, I mean, it's just so. It's just always there to me. So sometimes I forget what I'm doing. You know, I'm doing media, you know, like there's never there's never a day where I don't feel horrible for what I did that night. Not horrible for having no law license. I mean, look, you know, if you were to look at me today and say, oh, the guy's been on stage with President Obama and President Trump and worked with half the governors in the country and worked with major businesses and built programs, you know, like people would say, oh, this looks like it worked out for him. Everything's cool for him. It's not really the case. And I go back to, and you might have heard this story in another context, you know, when my first daughter was born, when Vienna was born, born here at GW hospital in DC. And 1s it was the greatest moment of my life for like. A minute 40s. And then my thought met immediately to the fact that that the father of the person I hit once held their child the same exact way I held Vienna that day, and I nearly took this poor guy off the count and like. And that was supposed to be the happiest moment of my life, right? So? So it's never not there and then happen again when my other daughter Carlina was born and and again, no one should feel bad for me. But I think that there's sort of this belief that, you know, you commit crimes, you go to prison and, you know, you never give a fuck after that. And that's just not the way it is. Melissa.

 MERP  

 42:43

 Right. Well it's sobering. It's like with every piece of joy that you have and you should have that joy. 1s I'm sure that's part of your sobriety. And the ability to keep maintaining it is to know that to remember and to acknowledge the the true ramifications of your.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 43:01

 That's right, that's right. And you know

 MERP  

 43:03

 what is it not minimize it in any way.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 43:06

 And it's exactly right. And my worst day, feeling as bad as I did for what I caused, is still better than the worst day, is that I caused that person I heard and their family and you know, and that never. It's so funny, you know, in the sense that people say, John, you got to let it go. You have to do those things, go get another job. We don't have to talk about this shit anymore. And and I don't talk about it because I'm because it's my job. I talk about it because I hope it helps somebody. Right? Because there are listeners you're going to have, especially with your vast listenership, right, who are going through something like I was going through have a friend going through something like I was going through, 1s and my hope is that hearing this story and maybe the work that I've done will help them make a different decision than I made and not. Not do what I did. I mean, that's why I do this.

 MERP  

 43:55

 Yeah. Mean the question really always comes up at this point is, is 1s what do we recommend when people are struggling? We know that mental health and alcoholism is a huge issue among lawyers. We know this to the statistics of alcoholism among lawyers as well as mental health, suicide, depression. You know, there's a large percentage of attorneys that don't even want to be practicing law anymore because of the level of stress. And I guess, like, you know, whenever I get to this part of the conversation, I always want to say, like, what can we do? Where should people go? I mean, I know their services, but you know, what would have made a difference in your life at that

 JOHN KOUFOS

 44:45

 time? You know, it's hard to calculate. I don't I don't know, I think that I think I want to say and it's not the judge's responsibility to do this, by the way, but because my career is the only thing that I was doing with myself right at that point. Now I'm married, have children. Back then, I wasn't anything like, I have nothing like that. No family. 2s When I needed help. I went to a judge and the judge got me help. Right. And I think that because that was who mattered to me in my world, I think it's going to vary from person to person. Right? But, you know, the one thing about distress of law, you know, people always say, John, you know, if they let you practice again, you know, what are you going to do? I said, well, I'm going to get my law license back just to have it, but I don't I'm not going back to trying cases. Right. I'm not going back to that. To to that one. No, I never I wouldn't. I mean, what I may do, maybe I'd, you know, do like a legal services nonprofit because I have access to various philanthropies and things of that nature. And the networks I have are much better now than I had in practicing law. Candidly. I mean, the ironic part of this, like, whole story, right, is like, yeah, we

 MERP  

 45:51

 haven't even gotten to the

 JOHN KOUFOS

 45:52

 ironic part, right? The part is that here I was, I didn't know a single politician, and I didn't know anyone who, you know, any policy makers and, you know, since 2014, you know, I've worked with, you know, governors all across the country. I helped in new Jersey to help governor McGreevey, former governor McGreevey, execute his vision to to build a statewide reentry program. And that allowed also volunteers of America and South Jersey, who have been doing wonderful work for decades. Right. A whole new funding stream, right, that came through the the grant that started in new Jersey Reentry Corporation. We had five former governors in our board. I was asked to be the executive director of it, which I actually initially said no. And then I said yes. And then I built a bunch of sites for the JRC. And then I was asked to come to DC in 2017 and to 2017 by the attorneys for Charles and David Koch. Right. Charles and David Koch. David, God rest his soul. They were big supporters of many libertarian causes and were big supporters of criminal justice reform, public safety focused criminal justice reform, employment for people with records for the right, people right who are trying to actually better themselves and can add value to businesses and in so many other wonderful causes. So they brought me to DC and and that that was how I ended up working with President Trump.

 MERP  

 47:20

 So yeah, I mean I definitely and again you're like, you're such a great 1s storyteller. But yet sometimes you skip and I'm like, wait, wait, wait, I want to know. And I think people want to know, how did you go? And and so I have like five different thoughts at the same time. So I'm going to organize. Let me fire away. So my first thought and I'm going to do it in the order that they had was when we were talking about getting your law license back and practicing again, I, I want it clear that I love practicing law. And when I say, no, no, no, don't do it, the level of stress in being a criminal trial attorney and to running a business and a practice, I would say. 2s Is what I don't always recommend individual cases helping my clients when I am able to 2s advocate for them in a way that gets them the right results in a fair result. I love that, but I got to tell you, I'm exhausted by the end and I think I'm 50. I'm 52, and I think, I don't know if I could do this for 20 more years or 15 more years, you know, and

 JOHN KOUFOS

 48:33

 and I loved it. I loved it too. And, you know, and, you know, if there's any part of the practice of law I miss. It's that. Right? It's the ability to help someone, you know, either protect them from an injustice, right, or or helping someone get their life back together or all the different things we do as defense lawyers. So I definitely miss that. But I've been very lucky to. 1s To be in the position I am. And I feel like, you know, God has put me in this particular position and and, you know, to me. I don't know that that I want with, you know, a four year old and a one year old that that I'm going to go I would be interested in going back and rocking and rolling in courtrooms, you know, I mean, I have no I have no doubt that I could do it, 1s you know, but I don't I don't know, but I think, I mean, I do think I would like the option. Right. And I also think I would like the insurance policy, so to speak, of having that where I could I mean, candidly with, with what I do now, I could, I could practice law and be like a government affairs lawyer if I needed to because of the type of things I do today. Right. I don't have to go back into a courtroom and slug it out.

 MERP  

 49:49

 Correct. But but 1s I think, you know, you worked at something, you know, you earned that law degree. And and I do think that there should be a path to obtain your license again. So I hope that whether you use it or not. But what's interesting is, is that you have this platform. You've made a huge difference with reentry programs and working with governors. And so the real question is what happened from, you know, when you were released, how did you end up connecting with former governor McGreevey? How did you end up sort of having this platform and then. Kind of in the context of this, as well as your sobriety and your mental health. You really do talk about your belief in God and how thankful you are for where you are. And sort of in the, I almost would say, in the opportunity to, you know, continue to do the work that you're doing right now. And I don't know if you can address like the spirituality and, and did you have that belief in God beforehand and it just. No. I'll start

 JOHN KOUFOS

 51:00

 I'll start there. No, no. God was someone that, you know, my mentally ill alcoholic mind blamed for everything that went wrong in my childhood. Anytime something didn't go my way, it was all. It was all God's. Everybody else's fault but mine. But anything good that happened was all me, of course. Right. That that's about as logical. That's about. That makes as much sense as my cover up, right? Yeah.

 MERP  

 51:23

 Like the trial attorney though,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 51:25

 right? Right. So you know, and then and then, you know, drown that in alcohol. And so, you know, so no, I was I was not God was was not a friend of mine in my view when this all was going on. So anyway, so I get out and I had a job, I was working at a, at a company in Trenton because I knew the CEO, you know, doing office type work, things of that nature. And but I couldn't do anything that was good for my soul. So when I was practicing, I did a lot of work for the NAACP in Middlesex County, right. I would help them with civil rights cases, old expungement clinics, etcetera, for, you know, for family members of their members. But I couldn't do that because I had no license. So I saw something in prison because you see, like, you know, I think a lot of people go to prison. They come out and complain about everything in prison, like prison is not supposed to be the Hilton. Okay. So I'm not one of those people that says, you know, the food sucks. Well, yeah, the food does suck, right? And it's it's actually crazy when you when I watch prison shows, when they show prisons around the world, usually the food is better in the prisons, knows in those prisons than where I was. Right. But like, that's that's prison, right? Don't come to prison if you don't want to deal with that guards or to, you know, on the TV shows, they always show beds with like cots with an actual mattress. And I'm like, right, right.

 MERP  

 52:41

 What new Jersey prisons look like?

 JOHN KOUFOS

 52:43

 No. But the one thing that really stuck out to me in prison, I saw the very worst in some people, but also the very best. Right? But I also got a great understanding of why some of the things go the way they go when it comes to recidivism and re offense. And I remember just sitting there watching people go out to parole and halfway houses and be sent back for some unpaid ticket, unpaid fine, unpaid fee. Right. And I'm like, how the hell could this actually be a thing? Right? Um, and it's interesting. It happened to me. So I had a house with rocks in brick, right? Because I was alcoholics, I wasn't going to mow my lawn ever. So that's actually why I picked the house, because I thought rocks look cool. And I knew that I'd be busy getting drunk and I would never have to mow it. And so what happened was, I go to prison and brick, everybody knows me and brick, right? It's not a big place. Um, and like, we'd start growing through these rocks, right? And I'm like. And I don't know, this is happening until one day I'm told I have caught and I have video caught, and this video caught was not as common back then. And like, the hell could I have caught for. So I get there and like, the Bricktown seal is on the thing and I'm like, no, I know I have no, no, no business here. And it turns out that some code enforcement officer wrote a ticket to the house that says, you know, John never cut his weeds. And then John didn't go to court because John was busy at Bayside State Prison, you know, mopping floors and doing things like that. So so they showed a warrant for my arrest and suspended my driver's license because I didn't cover cut my weeds. And I remember like, and I get there and did I most of the lawyers are knew me as a John will handle it didn't matter. They paid the $30 court cost or whatever. But it it struck me that if this could happen to me with all the advantages that I have, what does a guy to know how to read? What is he or she going through? And then something else a little deeper than that happened over and over, is that nobody asked me for money, but nearly everybody asked me for a job, right? And I don't even know what I was getting out. And I was, you know, I had my own problems, right? But people started saying, look, John, I need I wish I could get a job. I don't know how to get a job. I can't get my license. You can't all these things. So I never forgot that. So I parole out and and I learned that McGreevey is doing like county jail ministry or something like that. And then doing a program, a workforce program with the mayor of Jersey city at the time. Well, he's still married, Steve Fulop. So I just reached out to Steve Fulop. I didn't know anybody. I said, hey, look, this is who I am, and I want to be connected to whoever's in charge of that program. I didn't know it was McGreevey, actually. And God bless Steve Fulop. He just hit reply and copied McGreevey on it and said, Jim, can you talk to this guy? He's a friend. 1s I

 MERP  

 55:22

 mean, he came to my bar 1s installation as president, but he's just he's such an amazing guy. So

 JOHN KOUFOS

 55:31

 help me. Yeah. So that's what he did. So anyway, then Jim McGreevey and I started chatting and, and I said, look, you know, I really just want to put my old lawyer buddies together to stop these old fines, fees, warrants. And we got to talking. And Jim had this great vision of a, of a statewide reentry organization. And we got to talking and we exchanged ideas and we took it to Governor Christie. And and that's how it was built. That's how that part was built. And that, that work because we got so many people jobs again, got me noticed in D.C. and then they brought me to then the Kochs brought me to D.C. and, and I led a lot of big projects there. And, you know, and then by chance, I ended up just working very closely. I was in the white House many, many times, and the Oval Office many times 1s on TV. With President Trump on second chance hiring in the Oval Office when the First Step Act was signed, because it was just a great coalition of like Republican and Democrat people who came together to try to do the right thing, to make sure that people who wanted jobs but had records could get them in a way that made sense for employers.

 MERP  

 56:39

 Right? Right. Yeah. Mean, I talked to you briefly. And former retired Superior Court judge Mark Sorenson had the same philosophy that, you know, people would want to work if they could get jobs and they can't get jobs. They can't get jobs if there's open cases, they can't get jobs if there's felony convictions. And, you know, kind of on that same line, that same idea created the jobs program to have companies like the casinos, you know, some of the hospitals employ people in recovery court or who have prior convictions. So and it really is a shame of like the, the,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 57:22

 the court costs and the fines that really in the end, it's an uphill battle for so many clients. I'm always have this story where my dad had somebody who worked for his business, who didn't have a license, and my dad had like vending machines and cigarette machines, Coca-Cola machines all over North Jersey. So he needed his, his staff, his employer's employees to be able to drive. And one of his employees, who he worked for him for years and years, could not get his license back. And my dad finally was like, I am going to go to all these municipal courts and figure this out. And I was not a lawyer yet. I might have been in law school, but I was not practicing in new Jersey. And he went to all the municipal courts, and he paid his employees fines and costs, which equaled like $4,000 at the time. My dad paid every single court, and then they went to a motor vehicle commission to get his license back. And you know what happened?

 MERP  

 58:28

 He couldn't get his license because. 1s In addition to the municipal court finds. Then there are motor vehicle commissions surcharge fund. Oh,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 58:37

 yeah. That's right.

 MERP  

 58:39

 So they're in two different places. And this was an individual who did not have a high school graduate high school diploma. And he was a really good worker, a really good employee. But he, you know, and when my dad went to the motor vehicle Commission and they still said he still owed another 4 to $5000 in surcharge. And my dad was like. This is. I mean, he I don't even think he did it. He was like, this is crazy. The system is crazy that, you know, those are the penalties. And then somebody can never drive in a state that you have to be able to drive in to work. Sure. No, I mean, it's you're the nail on the head, you know, and we've attacked this issue in many different ways. You know, in Mississippi, for example, you know, we passed some laws, and the governor at the time was a very, very hard on crime guy, very smart on crime guy named Phil Bryant. And I remember being sent to Mississippi to talk to him about these bills. And, you know, I was like, you know, how the hell are you going to send me off? Obviously going to be like my Cousin Vinny, you know what I mean? Sending me to Mississippi here. But the people of Mississippi were wonderful. The policymakers were wonderful. You know, you have deep faith in that state. And I think that, you know, you have a real a real prioritization of work. So Mississippi, at one point when we passed this, we passed a law where people could check in to parole via FaceTime. This is before the pandemic and all those things, right? And like it was like Mississippi and California were the only two, like, innovative places in America where you could check in with your parole officer by statute via FaceTime. Right. But like it was, it's a work barrier and you can't get anywhere in Mississippi. Right. And then and then, of course, then they started abolishing some of the some of the fines and fees issues in the state. So that's how I got my start in doing this work. I got lucky, I got noticed doing a good job. And, you know, and I hope a good job and and then, you know, the it was interesting you know with with I had previously met and been on stage with President Trump, President Obama, 1s but I did a lot more work from the criminal justice perspective of President Trump. It was interesting because President Trump, you know, if you watch interviews with him, you know, he talks. He will talk from time to time about his brother Fred, who died of alcoholism. Right. And now Trump doesn't drink. And I think that's probably why he, you know, probably why, you know, he was as open to me as he was when we talk about criminal justice issues and as welcoming as he was. And it was the interesting thing, you know, not to put politics aside because I don't, you know, I'm not I'm here to talk about. But like. The one thing I think the Trump effect. From the First Step Act, which was the big federal legislation that he surprisingly, people never thought he'd sign it, signed and actually championed the. The Trump effect was that hard. Republican governors around the state from around the country would now do smart criminal justice reform in a broader sense, because they had political cover to do it. Right. So, like the Trump effect on that part of the criminal justice system, like no one's ever captured it. But I would I would go to states that, you know, would never have spoken to me about criminal justice reform after Trump wanted to President Trump wanted to do it. And now they were open to listen. Right. And I think that that that that effect has helped more people rebuild their lives, more people with justice involvement rebuild their lives then than probably anybody else ever could, because he was the most unlikely person one would think to champion such an issue. But he did. Now, of course, if you stepped out of line, the laws that he would pass would, you know, would bury you under the prison. Right. But but at the same time, he was a big my impression of him having, you know, been in the white House, you know, many times was I mean, this is a person who who really cared about this particular issue, particularly addiction. Right, because he saw it firsthand. Right.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 62:41

 Just like Governor Christie. Right. Governor Christie has a great you know, it tells a great story of a personal experience he has with a dear friend who passed away from opioids. And Governor Christie, another Republican that's been a tremendous champion of addiction, public safety focused, you know, criminal justice reform, you know, all the way through addiction treatment and expansion.

 MERP  

 63:03

 Right? Well, you know, criminal justice reform in new Jersey was enacted, a bill removed in 2017, and that was under

 JOHN KOUFOS

 63:11

 Chris Christie. Yeah.

 MERP  

 63:13

 So, I mean, we'll make it into a either a liberal issue or a Democratic issue. It didn't occur under it occurred under a Republican Republican administration

 JOHN KOUFOS

 63:25

 and a tough on crime. One. Right. Remember, he was a US attorney for eight years, and he certainly wasn't known for letting people off with a slap on the wrist.

 MERP  

 63:32

 Right. And I would say in new Jersey, when it comes to municipal court cases for nonviolent offenses, for lower level crimes, criminal justice reform works. You know, there are less people being detained on, you know, frivolous matters or matters that would keep them in custody. You can hear my office in Atlantic City. 2s You know, matters because they can't afford bail. Like there's nobody in custody right now because they can't afford bail because they're indigent. Now, I would say that, you know. I see. I see issues with criminal justice reform when it comes to the prosecutor's power to charge and with certain offenses where there's now presumption of detention, which wasn't there in 2017, they keep adding more charges to the presumption of detention. And, you know, the public safety assessment and how that's applied today. But when it comes to indigent clients being in prison or jail, waiting in jail because they can't afford it, that issue has been reformed. And that's good. People shouldn't be sitting in custody because they don't have money.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 64:52

 That's right. And dangerous people shouldn't be let out just because they have money and think that's what a lot of people you don't forget that. But I think a lot of people don't realize that part of it. Like, you know, I remember bales a lot of the work I've done for Arnold Ventures and and, you know, they keep calling it it was called bail Reform. Bail reform, bail reform. I said, no, bail reform is like a loaded term, like defund the police. Right? Like what this really is our system in new Jersey is risk based bail, right? They look at the risk. And if you're deemed too risky, you sit. And if you're not deemed too risky, you get to leave either on your own or with conditions. And I think that that, you know, my old clients, you know, could buy their way out of almost any bail, you know, well, subject to a source hearing, but they could buy their way out of almost any bail that could. That would never happen anymore.

 MERP  

 65:41

 I like that you clarified the source hearing. I feel like you did that because you knew I would be able to call you on it, because most people would be like a source hearing, what's a source hearing? You know, 1s but. Right. And and I do agree with you on that. I think that what's deemed dangerous, you know, is definitely sometimes subjective to, you know, where you live. And and again, the charges are sometimes discretionary when it comes to the prosecutor's office. And I know that prosecutors are doing their job just like I'm doing my job. But sometimes, you know, I see like the additional, you know, second degree or let me throw in this first degree, you know, I might not be able to prove it, but I can establish probable cause and then it changes the whole the whole calculations kind of get get changed. So, yeah, I think that it's an example of no one system is going to be perfect. I mean, the bail system based on I like the way you said it is just because you have money, you should be able to get out of jail, you know, or you don't have money. You're stuck in jail is clearly a system that didn't work. The other reform in new Jersey that really has helped over the years is that they move the driver's license suspension from most offenses.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 67:00

 Oh, is that right? Didn't even know

 MERP  

 67:01

 that. Right. So it used to be if you were convicted of a drug offense, you lost your license for a minimum of six months to 24

 JOHN KOUFOS

 67:07

 months. Remember that you

 MERP  

 67:09

 don't lose your license under age gambling, six months loss of license. Well, there's no license suspensions on almost any offense now other than eluding,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 67:21

 which makes sense. I mean, yeah, I mean, if you haven't seen

 MERP  

 67:23

 or leaving the scene of an accident or,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 67:26

 you know, I didn't lose my license for that actually threw an anomaly in the plea agreement. My license was never suspended because there is no mandatory there was no mandatory suspension on the to see charge of it. There is on the ticket. Um, but I can tell you that made absolutely no difference in my life because I wasn't driving anywhere in Bayside State Prison.

 MERP  

 67:45

 Right. It is now a requirement of that plea. It's a two year loss of license under the two C. Oh, is

 JOHN KOUFOS

 67:53

 that right? Okay. Yeah.

 MERP  

 67:55

 So you'll when when you get your law license back, you'll have to catch up on the last.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 68:00

 Yeah. I'll be doing maritime law or something like that. I won't be catching up on any, on anything 1s maritime.

 MERP  

 68:09

 So.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 68:13

 With all of this. I mean, your story is 1s I want to say it's like a movie story. It's it's sad where you, you know, the the what you've had to work through and the trauma that you've experienced, the mental health, 1s the, I'm going to say, crimes that you committed, you know. 2s Using your words and and still the ability to to, you know, affect so many lives positively. I guess I would say to you, you know

 MERP  

 68:46

 what? What is your goals in life now? Your hopes, you know, do you have I mean, do you have the long term plan or are you still living? I'm sure you're still living day to day, you know.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 68:59

 Yeah. My only my only goal is to be the best father and husband I can be. That's the only thing I really care about. I don't, and that's really it. 2s It's it's. 1s I'm. No, I'm not driven by career. My my my career is I want to do impactful work. I want to help people. I want to make sure that I can do things that help prevent tomorrow's victims. Right. Because as I said, I can't build a time machine and not hurt the person that day. If I could, I would. 2s So my my priority is to continue to help change systems to prevent tomorrow's victims, help whoever I can along the way, and as many people as I can along the way, and and be the best dad and husband I can. And that's that's the universe. One of looking at it, which is quite interesting. Right? So, as you know, when you're a defense lawyer doing the kind of work I was doing and the work that you do every day, you know, you know, you think you're, you know, you, not you. But I thought I was bigger than I was, right? And today I have much more access to actual power than I ever had before. I have no power of my own, but I can. I have a lot of numbers in my phone if I need to to call somebody. Right. And and I think that that. I. But I never call anybody. I no call any favors. I don't do any of this. I mean, the I've helped a few people get on the bench and things like that, but those were really, really good people without access to do so. 1s And, and I think that it's, it's I feel that God because I was ready for that kind of responsibility. Right. God has now given it to me. If God would have given me the access of multiple presidents and half the governors in this country when I was still wild and out as a as a raging alcoholic, right? God knows what I would have done with it. Right? And but today, right today, I'm, I'm because my focus is only on being a father and a husband and helping helping the next person in need. 1s That my career is simply my career. My career ambitions are simply the math problem to make sure I make enough money to to do what I have to do for my family and to make sure I'm making a difference. So it's I can't even believe I say that because if you were to ask me in 2010 what my plan was, you know, would have been a much different answer,

 MERP  

 71:20

 possibly to rule the world. 2s No, but but I understand I would say to you that. 2s When your kids get older and they tell you all the things that you don't know, it's like the most humbling experience. And so if I did think I was going to be ruling the world or making all the connections and and I to, you know, do have a lot of people that I can, you know, call if need be. I would tell you having four young adult ish kids, you know, is humbling enough for me to know that I am not, you know, as they would say, I'm not all that. You know, they tell me all the things I don't know. So. But, you know, I think that it's amazing what you've done. And I think that it's important for people to know that our struggling with alcohol, mental health drugs, that there is a road to recovery and there is ways to, you know, or I would say people to reach out to that do want to help and services to provide for them.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 72:24

 Yeah. And I think you have to I mean, you really you owe it to yourself. Anybody who's listening who might, if anything at all is familiar that I've talked about in this podcast, if anything is familiar, you already got got something wrong. So you better get on the phone with somebody before. 2s I mean, you implode your own life, or as I nearly did, well, you know, kill somebody. And I think that that's that that's. 3s There's no words to describe what it's like to live the life I live today. Knowing what I did then right and knowing how fucking unnecessary it was. Right? Like not that, not the crime is necessary, but like when I think back about how simple it would have been in life to just not have that occur, right? We only had to make a few minor tweaks earlier in life, and that person never gets hurt. It just it. Like, I, I bang my head against the wall, you know, thinking about it. But hopefully if anybody on your show or excuse me listening to your show is going through something similar, reach out. I mean, first of all, I mean, if you just Google me and all my contact information very easily to find right have been national media and all those things, and I'm not a hard guy to find and I'd be happy and

 MERP  

 73:46

 it'll all be on the mighty website as well. Yeah. All your contact information. Great. Yeah. And and so John has just announced that if you need help and you don't know where to go, that you can reach out to him, and he helped make the connection

 JOHN KOUFOS

 74:04

 100%, 100%. You know, let's fix this thing together before something really bad happens.

 MERP  

 74:10

 Thank you so much for your time, John. I really appreciate

 JOHN KOUFOS

 74:13

1. I had a well, thank you. Thank you for all you do and for for using your significant platform to amplify, you know, these important issues because you know, someone of your stature and who's so well respected throughout new Jersey and beyond to to take an interest in your Friday evening to to make sure this message gets out to people in need. I mean, says speaks volumes of you and I'm very, very blessed to just be a small part of

 MERP  

 74:38

 this. Oh thank you John. Did you notice my screen got a little darker because the person who thought they were the last person in the office shut off most of the lights during our interview, and I didn't want to get up to turn it back on,

 JOHN KOUFOS

 74:54

 so I didn't notice that. But. But you'll catch that in post as they say.

 MERP  

 74:59

 Yes. Well, thank you again.

 JOHN KOUFOS

 75:01

 Thank you my friend. Have a wonderful evening and a great weekend.

 MERP  

 75:04

 Thank you.