Family Law with Dawn Kaplan and Amy Smith

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 Where did the name Mighty MERP  come from? 1s Good question. Mighty MERP  is available on iTunes, Spotify and all your favorite apps and players. 2s Welcome to the mighty MMA podcast, Don Caplan and Amy Smith, Mighty Murph. So when I got married, my initials actually spelled out. 1s Melissa Elaine Rosenblum Pozner. But when I got married, my younger sister said, your nickname is now MERP . It's like a muppet, and we love the Muppets when we were little. 1s So I've been known as Murph for a while, and mighty is just sort of, 1s you know, one of those play on words. I'm, you know, I jokingly say I'm mighty. I'm like a super attorney and a super mom, and I can do everything because we're women and we probably do need to do everything. But I'm also tiny, you know, I'm five three. So I think it's funny when I use the word mighty, mighty. 2s So 1s well. Welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited. I know we've been planning this for a while and think. 2s Think we have a lot in common. I think we're going to be able to be like me to a lot on a lot of things. But I did some research on your law firm and like mine, you're a woman owned law firm. Tell me. I don't know, maybe I'll just go back and forth between each of you. I don't know who wants to answer this, but when did you start your law firm and did it just start with the two of you and the focus. I don't know if when I opened my firm, I knew I was going to kind of. 1s The not just a woman owned business, but like a woman advocate as a business owner. And it definitely that's how it evolved. So tell me a little bit about your one that I'll do the next one. Okay. So Amy and I started the firm in February of 2012. And at that time it was just Amy and I and we, you know, had a few conversations. We actually joined and it's Weinberg, Kaplan and Smith. So Joseph Weinberg is actually the Weinberg and the name or was the Weinberg the name. He was looking to retire and he didn't necessarily want to close his doors, but he needed help. And Amy and I talked about it, and we were at a place together, and we thought that we could do this and maybe make some, I guess, changes internally of how we thought a firm should run, particularly in such a specialized area as family law. So we started it in February of 2012. Jo ultimately retired, I think it was around 2014. So then it was just Amy and I, and we had brought on associates and started expanding the firm with assistants and other support staff. And then Michael Weinberg, who is Joe's son, joined us in 2019 and he is now the Weinberg of Weinberg, Kaplan and Smith. Was that mandated when, you know, when when you took over mandated and we we weren't sure that he was really ever going to join us, but we said that no one else could. His name was already there. 2s There you go. So were you always family law practitioners? I do know, I think it was. Amy was a prosecutor in Berlin. Yeah, I was a prosecutor for five years in Burlington County before I started. And then I transitioned right into family law after that. So I was a prosecutor for five years in Burlington County, and I did like domestic violence trial team. And then I transitioned into family law right after. It was like a natural transition. And dawn was that? Were you always doing family lore? I say yes, I came out of law school. I practice workers comp insurance for for insurance defense firm for one year, and then realized that I wanted to do something different. And when I was in law school, I always thought I wanted to do family law. But when I got out of school and was looking for a job, there was nothing available. But I knew that was my passion. So yeah, for 21 years. Family law. 1s Right? Think we all graduate and we sort of if we're not clerking, we might take that first job or that first opportunity, even not 1s the exact that I was going to say. I don't even have it on my resume, but I work for a civil law firm for about four months before I started working in the Philly public defender's office. And I've done criminal law my whole entire career. But I did take a job for a few months, you know, just needing a job, right? I was a solid one year start to finish, and I was like, if I don't get out now and make the change and find what is really my passion, and I knew what it was, I felt like I was going to get stuck there. So I just kind of made the leap and it's just stuck with me. 2s Amy, you were going to add? No, I was going to say I started as a law clerk up in Hunterdon County, and I clerked for a family law judge. And she basically said to me, you need to be a prosecutor because it's the only way you're going to get experience, and you're going to learn the rules of evidence, and you're going to learn your court rules, and you're going to learn how to present in front of a jury. Because I found when I shifted to family law, there's a lot of family lawyers that don't know how to do that. Like they don't know what the rules of evidence are they don't like. It was shocking to me. So I'm glad she made me do that for five years because it was invaluable court experience. Right? I tell all young attorneys, anyone who says they want to be a trial attorney, I say go to a prosecutor's office or a public defender's office. Totally. My listeners know I started in Philly at the public defender's office. I always rave about the experience and the fact that they really taught me how to be a trial attorney, and I handle a lot of domestic violence cases, which you both know are in family court. And I agree that a lot of people that are not trial lawyers who didn't have that experience, they don't know the rules of evidence. And 1s I know that some of your judges don't as well. So it's important to. You know, everybody know what they're doing. 1s Right. Well, think people would be surprised when somebody says, well, the judges might not know the rules of evidence. And the truth is, is that if you're not a trial attorney and you're not really looking at the rules of how to get into evidence and how to keep out evidence, you don't you don't know it, right? 2s So when you opened up your firm, or I'll say as your firm progressed, you know, were there, you know, what are your responsibilities, Amy? What's Don's responsibilities? I know you're both the co-founders, but do you focus on different things and running a business and running the business of law? Yeah, I think we I think we do. I think Michael and I are very similar. Like, we love to just run with the cases. Don handles more of the money because we don't want to. 1s So and he enjoys it. So Michael and I are like, let's just go and let's get to court. And Don likes that too. But she also like the managing piece of it that Michael and I would prefer not to do. So it actually works because we don't ever get in each other's lanes, because we all know what we want to do, which is good. Yes, 1s they don't want to get in my lane. No. So I kind of do the business side of it. You know, we're a smaller boutique firm. They've named me the managing partner. 1s You know, it started out as a joke way back when, even when Michael joined, you know, we explained to him what my role was and he was very happy to say I have no interest in that. I just want to work as an attorney. But there has to be someone that handles the business side of it, and I actually enjoy it, especially as Amy and I have grown over the years since 2012. Never do I think either one of us really ever thought the firm was going to become what it was. And now even today, we both kind of get up. You know, do networking events work very hard, thinking that at any point in time this can all fall apart, that we never really thought it would get here, 1s right? Do you think that's a woman thing, that we think it can all fall apart at any time, and you have a pretty, you know, a pretty solid practice and you have if I counted right about 6 or 7 attorneys, either of counsel or associate, I mean, that's a solid medium sized. I wouldn't consider that a small law firm anymore. Right. You really have it that I still feel small, but I think it's that we're both very grateful. We both came from, you know, neither one of us grew up with a lot of money, you know. And so I think we're just we're grateful that we first of all, I get to work with my best friends every day. 1s We have great staff. We have great lawyers like we are. We're truly blessed to have what we have. And the good thing is we appreciate it like it hasn't. It's not like we take it for granted that we get to do this every day. So and I hope it never gets to that point, because that means that we should probably retire. But we are truly, truly blessed with what we have. I was going to say the same thing. I think it came from Amy, and I have very similar backgrounds. We didn't come from families that had attorneys, families that even went to college. So for her and I, you know, we went to law school and we might have been the first people in our families to get to college, let alone a graduate program of some type. So then to start our own firm, I think her and I wake up every day and think we're just the two women that met when our kids were young at a different law firm. And we started this and we did make it our family. And Amy says, we say it all the time. We try to tell our staff that, to let them know that we feel blessed, that they come to work and enjoy working, and we don't use the word for they do sometimes, but we say, no, we work together, you know? You don't work for us. We all work together. We truly are. And we call ourselves the team. Right. So let me ask you 1s have like three questions in a row and don't know the best order to take it in. So I'd love to hear both of your origin stories about how you decided to go to law school. But before we go there. You know, we're talking about the success of the law firm and that, you know, you're you have a good sized law firm. You're not you know, you've grown it over the years, over the last ten years. So I guess my question to you is, what do you think is the secret of your success? Or what do you think? You know, you're a family, your family practice, a family law practice. You handle divorces, you handle custody. You know. So I did say you did real estate. You have someone who does the little criminal as well. So you do a little of everything. But guess 1s what do you think has made your office's success or your practice of success? 2s I mean, I think for one, I think it's how we look at our cases in the sense that, you know, we care about our clients. We want to get them to the other side of what can be very difficult, terrible litigation. I think we're very honest with our clients. I don't think we sugarcoat things, 1s and I think our clients respect that. Like they, you know, I'll say to clients all the time, put your own kids through college, don't put mine through college. I think that I probably say that multiple times a week to clients because I 1s yeah, I really believe it. So I think that has made us successful with clients and the fact that, again, we have this great team, you know, from our paralegals down to our receptionists that make our clients feel welcome. And like, I just had a consult yesterday and she said to me, she said, I just want to tell you, your receptionist. Is amazing. And I was like, but that that's that's it. That's the secret like that. We treat everybody with respect and and and I think you feel it through everybody that works with us. Yeah. 1s I have with the sign in my office that says like, be nice and work hard. And it's the best compliment when my, you know, when my clients say, oh my goodness, your staff is so nice, or they've been, you know, so great. And listen, I have clients that are in terrible situations and they call the office sometimes yelling at they're just mad and upset. And then they they say your staff has been amazing and always go out to my staff afterwards. And I'm like, I know that John Doe has been a big pain, but he loves you guys, so thank you. Yeah, yeah. We always share when clients tell us when someone has done something kind or nice for them, and I carry the same sentiments as Amy. I also think one of the things everyone in our office, we're all very humble. We all know that we're not perfect. We don't know everything. We try to learn from each other every day. And I think one of the things that Amy said, and we can expand on is the honesty. We really kind of try to set realistic expectations from our for our clients from day one. We're not just trying to get them to sign on with us by telling them what they want to hear, and we say that to them, you have friends, you have family, you have people in your life that sometimes you need to hear just what you need to hear. But a divorce is very costly, and you don't want us to just tell you what you want to hear. You need to have realistic expectations so that there are no surprises along the way. Because the issue at hand the divorce, the custody battle, whatever it may be, may be the ultimate surprise. They don't need surprises along the way, and I think all of our attorneys do that set realistic expectations. And I think our staff is patient, and that's what our clients need. Sometimes when they can't get us, they just need someone to vent to. And our staff understands that it's all relative. And in their world, this is the worst thing happening. And they really are just we work with good human beings and that goes a long way in this world. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you. And that's the same idea at my office as well. 1s But you know, it's really important to know that even 1s that simple honesty to our clients up front, you know, I always say to clients like, I spend so much time at the consultation and in the first interview so that they don't need to talk to me as much afterwards, that my staff can handle a lot of their questions that they have. But, you know, I always try to have like a realistic expectation of the outcome based on the nature of the charges. And I have clients call me on traffic tickets and I say, you don't need me on this. I'll explain to someone how to handle a traffic ticket. A lot of people, after I tell them the truth about traffic tickets and what I can do and what I can't do, and then I tell them, if somebody's promising you A, B, or C, they can't like they're not being truthful. They're trying to scare you into hiring them. Even when I say, don't hire me, you can do this. They call me back and they're like, can you just come to court? I'll pay. And I'm like, okay, you know? But they appreciate the honesty about it, right? So. Yeah. So I'm going to ask each of you. And how do you end up going to law school? I did notice that all three of us went to Delaware Law School. Weidner, one of us, graduated in 97. One of us graduated in 98, and one of us graduated in 2000. I'm not going to say who graduated first. 5s So how did you end up in law school? If you're saying like you grew up with family that didn't even, you know, college wasn't necessarily the end goal for you or. 2s I mean, I knew like once I was in college, like originally I went to college thinking I wanted to be a doctor. And then after doing some of the pre-med, I was like, I'm done. And organic chemistry. Was it organic chemistry? Because that's what most people. Exactly. And so I knew I wanted to help people, I knew I. I originally thought that was what would be good for me. So then I originally was going to go to temple, and I had to go at night because I put myself through law school and I'll never forget, my dad drove me down there at night and he was like, yeah, we're not going to go to temple at night. Like, I'm not letting my little girl go down there because I'm, I'm little two. I'm only five. Three in that boy. And I started at night at, at Weidner. And then I ended up transferring to the day program and I was still able to finish in three years. But but it was it was a good experience, I thought. 2s And similarly, Amy and I were there at the same time. We did not know one another when we were there at the same time. When I originally went to, which was it's now the College of New Jersey, but Trenton State, I thought I wanted to get into some sort of forensics, always was intrigued by the FBI investigations and then going through meeting with my counselors. And, you know, I think once said at one point, what about law school? And I said, you know what, I always wondered? I thought maybe I would do like family law. I came from a blended family. So I kind of remember the good and the bad from it and thought I could help and make a difference in the same way. And I knew once I went to law school I knew what I wanted to do. I always knew I wanted to be a family law attorney. I just knew that a lot of times they were more boutique firms when they just did primarily primarily family law like we did. I knew it was going to be hard to break into, but you know, it was kind of something that I decided to do once I was in college. 3s Gotcha. 1s So I see both of you think you're founders of women owned law organizations? Yes. Is that an organization? Could you tell me about women owned law? I sort of was reading on your website and bios and then was like, I don't know what that is, but I'm interested. 1s John. Yeah, it's a group of female attorneys that have started their own businesses they meet. It's not as often as we thought when we kind of joined it, but they meet, they brainstorm, bring different guests that could possibly assist in your area of the practice, like someone could bring in, you know, someone that's in the mortgage business. Well, for us, that would help us. We have clients that are either buying a home if they've been bought out or they're, you know, needing to work through the refinance process. So it's just, again, other women that kind of did what we did. So when you opened up your own law firm, were there any major concerns other than Will we make money? That's always that was my concern when I opened up my offer. 1s Remember I said to my husband, I'm like, we're going to have to start clipping coupons like we're it's going to be tight. It's, you know, I was really preparing we really thought, you know, it was it was going to be more difficult than it was. I mean, it was challenging the first couple of years for sure. But it it was a big leap. But but easier than I thought, shockingly. And I think what people don't sometimes realize and I don't think Amy and I realized it like at the time we thought we were good attorneys and we could, you know, do this somewhere else. But we learned along the way that not only were we attorneys, we had to run a business and bills had to be paid, and there was payroll, and there was 401, and there was health insurance. And other people were depending upon us, not just our clients. And we really took that to heart as we were building this, that what we do not only affects our clients, but it affects everyone in this office. So we show up every day for our clients, obviously, but we're showing up for our staff that shows up every day for us and trust us that we're keeping the lights on. Yeah, right. I like that dawn went to the business aspect of it, of life where a business and we have to because I love being a lawyer and there's lots of things I love about running my own business, but. The business end the. I don't even know how else to say it, because it sounds really weird, but the, you know, the not the collecting the money. Obviously I'm in business, you know, that's the fun part. But, you know, 1s making sure that, you know, all the bills are paid. Yeah. You know, you're promoting or advertising in a way that makes sense. And, you know, do you need an answering service or not or what phone system, you know, all these, you know, business decisions that as your business grows, you know, when I started my firm, um, you know, I did everything as inexpensively as possible. So my Gmail, my my emails were emails. You know, I created initially my own website, I do now now I have someone that manages my website. Now I have, you know, specific emails for my law firm that are, you know, law firm generated, you know, and, you know, as you become more successful, the expenditures become more. Oh, yeah. And so that's the part of the business that I find really, you know, stressful, how fast to grow, how when to hire or when not to hire. You know, you know where to. I definitely have learned where to advertise. That was like right. Oh that's hard. We moved three times like we've we've actually moved three. Well, yeah, technically three times. Three times. And each time it is stressful. Luckily twice we're in the same building. So that wasn't too bad. But we we really grew our space and that was super stressful. Like, what if we can fill the space and, you know. Right. Luckily we have three times as well for, for finding the right space. And my email, I think it actually still says it, even though I've been at this location for 18 months now. But at the bottom of it it says, oops, we did it again and has the please note or not, 1s that's funny. But yeah. So what did you find once you had been in business or successful? I know the answer. Well, I'm going to assume one of the answers for Dawn is that she learned that she liked being the business end of being a lawyer. Um, but but, Amy, what what was it for you other than the clients mean? So I would say for me, what I found is I really like the marketing, and I like, um, you know, I knew I like teaching, I've taught at Delaware Law school and Rowan. And so I've been able to do a lot of close and promote that way. 1s So I did enjoy that. I enjoy the marketing and of the business. What have you found being in private practice that you kind of didn't expect but really enjoy? I mean, I like that it's mine. Like I like that. That's like the pride of like, it's it's it's mine. You know, like, you know, when I come in in the morning, we built that and this is ours. And so you see your hard work and where it goes. And again, just knowing that we're looking out for all these people that work with us, I think that is, again, I feel blessed that we get to do that every day. You know, that all these people rely on us, and it's also our job to make sure they're they like working here and they're comfortable because as we say to them, they spend more time here than anywhere else. So we want to have an environment where people actually like being here. And I think that's important as a business owner. Right? When you say it's mine, what I, what I hear and what I relate to, and that is that you're able to create a work environment that is an environment that not only you want to be in, but that everyone who works for you wants to be in. And that's one of the things I'm really proud of, too, because yeah, 1s I know my staff likes working here, and I always will wrap around to my kids at some point in the podcast. So I have four kids, and my oldest is a college graduate who's taking a gap year before she decides what to do next year. 1s For all my listeners, she has decided not to go to law school, but she's going to get a master's in social work, is what she decided. And she was thinking about substituting this year, and she was working part time at my office, and I had one of my paralegals went, took a new job in The Closer to you and the Cherry Hill area. So I needed a paralegal, and she ended up really liking working in the office. And she's working full time. She's a legal assistant. She loves the staff and the work environment and and she's really happy. And it is funny. Once in a while she'll come into my office and she'll start saying something. And the other assistant paralegal is like, that's more of a mom daughter conversation than than an office conversation, right? I know, do you listen to the way she's talking to me? You know, I was like, my staff usually just says yes to those things, but. Right, right. But it really was a nice shout out of what I created that she wanted to work here. Yeah. And to be a part of it in, in that, in that way. And I am really proud of that. Absolutely. Yes. So. 2s Would you recommend law school to people? Always ask this question because it's always next. Would you recommend law school to anyone in college? Anyone? I do it, I literally just talked to a client yesterday. I'm. I am my oldest. She's a freshman in college, but I definitely am pushing her toward law school. My little one, I'm not. But I just talked to a client about yesterday. I said, you can do so much with the degree. Like even if you don't want to be a lawyer, you can work at a hospital. You can be like, there's just to me, it is such a invaluable degree. Yeah, I tried to tell my daughter I'm doing a master's. I tried to do the dual, the Masters and JD, and she's like, no. And was like, okay. 1s Yes. But you would say yes. No caveat 100%. No. No hesitation. 1s I would agree. I have a son that's a junior at the University of Tampa. And he says his fallback plan is to go to law school because my mom has her own firm. That's his. That's his claim to fame. So I am pushing him in that direction. I think he'd be good at it. I don't know that he would like family law so much. He may. He just thinks I work entirely too much. But in the same breath of what Amy said, we do, we pretty much work 24 over seven. The kids don't know me to not have a laptop in front of me everywhere, but I say to them, once it's yours, you will feel very differently about the hours that you were and the commitment because it's yours. It's you've grown it. You've made it what it is. And every day we can strive to make it better. So as Amy said, it's it's hours and I don't mind working all the time. And a lot of times I spend weekends doing the business side of it, and that just makes it that much easier on everybody else. When we're here Monday through Friday. Right. Just so you know, I have juniors in college and I have a freshman in college, so oh my God, we. Matt. Yeah. And last year I had three in college as well because my daughter was a senior I have twins. So my guys are they local or. No. Like where are they going. No. 1s My oldest graduated from Suny Binghamton and one of my twins is at Suny Binghamton. And if people don't know who live in new Jersey, the Suny schools give a lot of scholarship. And so they we ended up paying equivalent to a Jersey state school. 1s They got the experience of going out of state. My other two were not as kind to me. I have one at Rochester Institute of Technology. He's a junior and thought that hurt a little writing those checks. And then I have another one at Franklin and Marshall, which is in Lancaster. Yeah. And although you did get a lot of scholarship and he worked really hard to go there, even with getting the most scholarship out of my four kids, his school is still the most expensive. So. Right. Yes, I jokingly say I will work forever at this point. Right. I say that all the time. I'm like you. I will have three in college next year. So I have my son. I'm a blended family, so I'm divorced and remarried. So my son is a junior, my daughter and my stepdaughter are seniors. And then my other stepdaughter is 12. So I have a little bit of a gap. But next year I will have three. So yes, I will work forever and then I'll have a fourth. Still coming up. Yeah, I thought I thought the diapers was stressful. Then I thought, oh yeah, daycare was stressful. 2s People plan gaps for years apart is what I recommend now, right? Right. And plan it. Don't have them too quickly in line, right. Do you think that? 1s Did you think that being a woman and having kids slowed down your career or your success in any way, did you think? No, I don't think it did for me. My husband is so supportive. Like he like we are a team. He pitches in, you know, just as much as that, you know, and he's a financial advisor and super busy. But I never had somebody that was like, oh, you're the woman. You're going to do x, y, z like he he does just as much as I do. So I don't think I lost any time, fortunately. So you guys have been in business for over ten years. Where do you see your firm in? You know, what? Do you have goals? I mean, my goals are to, you know, expand and have a few more attorneys in the next few years so that it's, you know, right now it's me and one associate, two paralegals would like to get us up to about, 1s you know, at least. Two more associates working for me to feel comfortable with our volume of cases. Do you guys have any goals that you think that or any change of direction for your firm? 2s Very similar in the sense that we look to expand. Right now we're looking for an attorney, and I think we could probably use two attorneys. But again, there's that hesitation. That's that sense of being humble and thinking that it's some moment in time the phones can stop ringing, knock on wood. In the years we've been here, they just ring more and more. But no, absolutely setting goals of trying to expand that. At some point we're going to get older and we want to keep the firm going that we surround ourselves with younger attorneys that want to build their own practice within our practice and bring in their own clients and their own business and be rewarded and compensated that way. Yeah. So at some point, maybe we can slow down. I don't think Amy and I are built that way, but I think we're we're told that's supposed to happen. Michael is not built that way either. So the three of us are very much alike. We talk about retirement, but thinking is something in the very far off future, even though I can't consider ourselves young anymore. 2s Yeah, I say that since all my kids are adults, I guess I'm not young anymore. I want to do this probably for another ten years or so at the pace I'm doing it now. I think after that, it would be nice to be able to slow up a little with the volume. Have you had trouble hiring? I know for my office it took me about, yes, months to find someone to fill the associate position that was the right fit for my firm and also, you know, was willing to, I would say was the right fit. Had met all the checkboxes, but didn't have a lot of people by either. 1s Yeah, we're finding and I don't what I'm hearing when I talk to lawyers that do any kind of law. This is across the board. Everybody's having difficulty finding new lawyer. And even like a lot of the law clerks that we know that clerked this past year, a lot of them chose not to go into family law for, for one reason or another. So we're yeah, we are definitely. And but again, I think it's industry wide. We're not I don't know where the lawyers are going. We would love them to come with us. But we just were having a really tough time. And 1s we have a family here. And we want to also ensure that you're just not bringing in someone to bring on someone if they fit. You know what we tried to bring to our clients so that we're all very similar in the aspects that Amy talked about, that at the end of the day, yes, we all get up. It's our job. We have bills we need to pay them. It's like anybody going to a job and collecting a paycheck. But everyone here, I can say, truly cares about the individuals that walk through our doors. Right? I agree. Think when you're small and you're. 1s Yes. 2s Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I was going to say when you're a small firm. No, no, no. That's okay. When I talk about the right fit, I really mean that they're going to embrace the atmosphere of the office, the energy of the office, the way we treat our clients, the way we advocate for our clients. And they have to be able to fit in all of that. But I was going to say, I agree that it's across the board. I find that 1s a lot of the clerks here have gone to the prosecutor's office or a prosecutor's office. I do think it's a great idea for experience. I also think that young lawyers are. 2s The. They have trepidation to join a small law firm like like mine, which was me and two paralegals at the time. 1s Now I have an associate with a few part time people too. But, 1s you know. I think. I think of it as an opportunity to be able to grow your business, to learn from someone who's experience, to be able to be part of something, a law firm that's growing. You know, my this firm has only been in existence five years, and it's amazing what I've done in five years, but think that it's scary for a young attorney to step into that, knowing that it's a young firm and, and think that's part of the reason why. So I feel like they go to either the big firms that they are getting the check out. They're going to the prosecutor's office or public defender's office or, I don't know, think a lot of at least where we are. I'm in Atlantic County. People leave the area so mean you guys are in a more dense area. So I would have thought that it might have been easier where you are then we're where I am now. 1s So not not right now. Not I would say probably in the last two years it's been really difficult. Like last year, we needed one new attorney this year. Now we're like, you can have two new attorneys and we just can't find, 1s you know, anybody that checks all the boxes and we really haven't. I mean, I'm not saying we're turning people away. We really just haven't had anyone that really is interested in doing this full time, right? Right, right. I have had I had one law clerk that applied last spring and said, 2s is remote work possible or is there an opportunity to work remotely? And the truth is, is that, you know, my associate who works for me has kids, and there are days that she works at home and she writes briefs. Sure, fine. But I was laughing. I was like, I am a criminal trial attorney. You have to go to court to work at this job. Yeah, there's. 3s You can't do it remote if you want to be in court. And I'm like, how are you going to learn if you're in your home and not in my office? No. All right. You know, it's one thing if you've had 1s all this experience and then you're, you know, working file work or reviewing cases at home, I mean, I can do that, but, you know. Yeah, sure. You got to go to the office to learn. You got to go to court to learn. Yeah. I mean, the best the best lessons sometimes, or watching other attorneys, watching attorneys that are affected 1s and then watching attorneys that are not effective in court. 1s Definitely. Yes. 1s So 1s all right, well, you guys have anything else to add? It was really nice meeting you. Your law firm looks amazing. Thankfully. Do not. Thank you, thank you. I don't need your services because I'm divorced or already the most amicable divorce in the world. 1s Oh, my kids. Dad comes to the house a few times a week. He visits, he says hi. Oh, he comes and visit very nice children. Which are the dogs, you know? And, um. Yeah, sometimes he gets dinner, sometimes he doesn't. And then I'm like, okay, see you later. 2s That's great. Like a marriage. Maybe there's dinner, maybe there's not. There you go. Yeah. That only happens once or twice a week now. Not not every day. So. No. No. Exactly. Yeah. So. Well, thank you so much for coming on the Mighty podcast. Thanks for having us. So much for having us. 2s We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Mighty Murph Podcast. This podcast is not a source of legal advice. No two legal cases are the same. Contact an attorney if you require legal assistance. 2s Mighty Merp is a production of the law office of Melissa Rosenblum.