Cyber Sexual Misconduct Prevention with Lindsay Lieberman

MIGHTY MERP 
Welcome back to the Mighty MERP Podcast. I'm here today with an attorney, Lindsay Lieberman, who is an owner and founding partner of her firm, Lindsay Lieberman LLC. We're going to talk about her law firm and the type of law she practices. But before we do, Lindsay, I'm just going to jump right in and say, I'm excited about this podcast because I love the fact

that you sort of found me either on the internet and LinkedIn and you reached out to me and said, Hey, I really like what you're doing. I would love to talk to you. And is it possible if we can talk on the podcast? And I have to tell you from a woman business owner to another woman business owner, I love it.

You know that I'm a mom and one of the things that I teach my kids and say all the time, if you want something, if you're excited about something, just ask. And the worst that people are going to say is, no, I can't do that. But you're like, you know, you just, you just reached out and you asked. And I'm so excited to have the conversation just based on that initial interaction with you.

Lindsay Lieberman (06:00.273)
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here and to be connecting with you. I saw you on LinkedIn because I had just seen a CLE where Jerelyn had been presenting. And so I followed her on LinkedIn. And then she posted that she had been on your podcast as a guest. So that's how you popped up on my feed. And I looked at your website and saw that you were all pink, which I loved.

and a mom and that your podcast was all about navigating entrepreneurship and motherhood and being a lawyer and I just thought, oh wow, this is a great fit.

MIGHTY MERP 
Yes.

MIGHTY MERP  
Yeah. So, and I love that you reached out and said, let's talk. So, um, tell me about, um, your origin story. I always like to know, uh, sort of where people grew up and what their background is and sort of how they ended up and deciding to go to law school or that decision of like, you know, I knew pretty young that I wanted to be a lawyer, but I know a lot of people, you know, it, it takes them a little bit longer to get to that, uh,

and results. So tell me your origin story a little.

Lindsay Lieberman  
Sure. Well, I'll start by, if it's okay, I'll just specify that the work I do is, I specialize in representing victims of sexual violence and cyber sexual abuse. And in addition to doing direct legal representation, I also do prevention and educational work. And so it's relevant to my origin story, because I remember being very young, maybe in middle school.

MIGHTY MERP  
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman  
and having very strong opinions and feeling very drawn to wanting to stand up for people, wanting to speak out against the bullies and speak up for people who were being bullied. And I was always drawn to the idea of trying to help people who were in need. Then in high school, I started watching Law and Order Special Victims Unit.

MIGHTY MERP  
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (08:16.681)
And that show just like totally inspired me. You know, I saw these women attorneys, women prosecutors up in the courtroom, working for justice on behalf of really vulnerable people, people who were victims of the worst kinds of crimes, sexual violence violations. And I felt like really excited about the possibility of becoming a sex crimes prosecutor.

MIGHTY MERP (08:46.976)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (08:47.521)
So I grew up in New Jersey in East Brunswick and I went to Rutgers for undergrad and I was in a sorority at college. I had this idea that maybe I could go to law school, but I think I was also nervous to take the LSAT and go all in. Then I noticed a bunch of my sorority sisters were taking the LSAT and were applying to law school and that really inspired me.

MIGHTY MERP (08:52.558)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (09:15.617)
And so I did it. I, um, I applied to law school. I went, wound up at Brooklyn law school and I became a sex crimes prosecutor. So I feel so fortunate that I had this little, this dream or this idea as a, as a young person, and I took all the steps with lots of help and encouragement from those around me and I, I ultimately became a sex crimes prosecutor. And now I.

MIGHTY MERP (09:22.675)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (09:41.781)
I run my own firm representing victims of sexual violence and cyber sexual abuse.

MIGHTY MERP (09:47.085)
And you also teach, correct?

Lindsay Lieberman (09:49.629)
Yes. So I'm an adjunct professor at Salve Regina University. That's in Newport, Rhode Island, where I spent my last five years. So a little bit about my personal background. I went to Brooklyn Law School and then worked at the Brooklyn District Attorney's Office and then worked for a private law firm in New York, also focused on sexual privacy work. And then I met my husband.

MIGHTY MERP (09:59.562)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (10:09.447)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (10:19.105)
And he had a job as a professor up in Newport, Rhode Island. And, um, and I moved there, uh, to marry him. And we had our babies there in Newport and I took the bar there while I was pregnant and started my own firm there. And then just this past year, my husband got a new job. So we no longer needed to be in Rhode Island. We decided to come back to the New Jersey, New York area where our families are.

MIGHTY MERP (10:28.884)
Yeah.

Lindsay Lieberman (10:47.757)
And so I just got back here about six months ago.

MIGHTY MERP (10:51.534)
Okay, and did you open your firm as soon as you came back?

Lindsay Lieberman (10:55.721)
Yeah, so it's a virtual firm. So I opened it in Rhode Island. I started it there. And because I was already licensed in New Jersey and New York, I didn't have to close it or I'm just still operating.

MIGHTY MERP (11:09.954)
So tell me how somebody reaches out to you. So it's a little bit different, although I do victim advocacy at my firm. I handle a lot of domestic violence cases with regards to restraining orders in New Jersey, which is sort of, you know, I represent both defendants and plaintiffs in the restraining orders. It just really is who reaches out to me.

I think that I have a lot of women that do reach out to me due to the fact that they see it's a woman-owned law firm, not only woman-owned. It happens that my firm is all women employed as well. And I think you can see from the website, there's a lot of power pink and women. I think you can tell. So I do represent a lot of women.

in the restraining orders and then I end up being a victim advocate for them in the criminal matters. Which is sort of strange because I also defend a lot of clients that are charged with those type of offenses as well. So I kind of see it from both perspectives. But if somebody was looking for an advocate or looking for your services, sort of...

What are the type of clients that you're representing or how do they find you? Cause it's not in, it's not the normal legal practice. You know, when you're looking for a divorce attorney, you know, you're looking for a divorce attorney, if you're looking for a criminal defense attorney, do you know, do you understand what I'm asking? Or is it not, is it, it's so convoluted.

Lindsay Lieberman (12:53.341)
No, it's not that your internet is breaking up. Sorry. So I'm getting bits and pieces, but I think I understand. I think I got it. So I'm sorry. I was thinking, should I chat? Should I message you when you're breaking up?

MIGHTY MERP (13:04.775)
It's okay.

MIGHTY MERP (13:09.958)
No, I mean, you can, you can, you have been fine on my side. So, I mean, I can, I can say it again, you know, you know, I just think that the type of, the type of services that you're specializing in is such a, such a niche, you know, narrow area. So, you know, how are people finding you or how are you finding clients from a business perspective?

Lindsay Lieberman (13:25.829)
Yes, okay.

Lindsay Lieberman (13:38.853)
So you're right, it's very niche. And fortunately, I have a very large network of attorneys and friends who know that I specialize in this work. I've been in this specific niche area for my whole legal career. So so far, I've been able to build my practice based on mostly referrals alone through friends and through attorneys and law school.

associates and colleagues. Um, so it's very niche. You mentioned that you represent, uh, victims and also defendants in the restraining order cases. So, um, I'm mostly, uh, I'm only doing victims rights work, but it's important to note that sometimes the victim is the person who winds up with an order of protection against them because the defendant or the, the abuser.

MIGHTY MERP (14:31.727)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (14:34.881)
will get an order of protection against the victim as part of their campaign of abuse. And so I do also represent defendants in family court cases if the facts are such that it's clear that the victim has the restraining order against them.

MIGHTY MERP (14:51.046)
Right. Is it ever clear? I think that, you know, these are such complicated cases. Yes, restraining orders are supposed to be for protection. And unfortunately, people use them as swords. They try to use them for a benefit in the custody case or the divorce proceedings. And, you know, sometimes it's really difficult to parse out.

MIGHTY MERP (15:24.741)
who is the victim and who is the abuser. You know, it's not always so clear.

Lindsay Lieberman (15:32.109)
Well, so one of the perks of having my own firm is I feel so blessed to be able to choose which cases I take. And so I try to really be clear about the clients that I work with to make sure that it is for me, for my own benefit, that I am representing somebody who I believe, you know, deserves my representation and is the person in need in that situation, whether it's domestic violence.

or some sort of cyber privacy violation. But I hear you generally, I think especially in like more like marital context, like divorce, it's very tricky and can be very complicated. But so far I haven't felt that way in my specific cases.

MIGHTY MERP (16:21.442)
So do you have an extensive intake interview with any potential new clients?

Lindsay Lieberman (16:27.957)
Yes, so I will give anybody who reaches out a free consultation. I do this because I've had clients who have hired me specifically because they said, I talked to other firms, they all wanted me to pay for the consultation and I'm not willing to do that. I think that's one of the benefits of working with someone like me who I'm just running a small solo firm.

MIGHTY MERP (16:33.994)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (16:57.397)
Um, so I can give that kind of attention to each client and potential client. Uh, so I'll speak with the potential client for about an hour, uh, get a sense of what's going on and in that time period, I have, I get a good sense of whether I can help them. Um, and if not, I'll of course refer them out to other, um, other firms or organizations that might be able to help them.

MIGHTY MERP (17:23.834)
And so what courts do you end up working in with clients? You mentioned family.

Lindsay Lieberman (17:31.457)
Yep. So family court. Um, and again, I'm in New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island. Uh, luckily most courts are still virtual. Um, but in addition to family court, I'll do, um, civil litigation in any of the courts in the three states. I'll do, um, criminal case advocacy. So let's say a person comes to my firm and they've been the victim of a sex crime or a cyber sex crime, and they want help or assistance.

navigating the criminal justice system. I'll come on and support them through that process, help them speak with police officers and help them organize their evidence to give to the police and sort of advocate for them during that otherwise kind of intimidating process. I also represent college students in Title IX proceedings. And, and.

MIGHTY MERP (18:03.694)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (18:25.975)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (18:31.169)
In addition, like I mentioned earlier, maybe we could talk about it later, I'm trying to do a lot of prevention work, trying to kind of get ahead of some of these issues. Actually, since I had my babies, I was inspired to see what I could do.

MIGHTY MERP (18:47.906)
I'm sorry, Lindsay, you just timed out on my side. So tell me more about the prevention work because I'm really interested in that. And I assume that it's on college campuses that you're speaking.

Lindsay Lieberman (18:51.926)
No problem.

Lindsay Lieberman (19:02.337)
Yes, so I'll speak on college campuses. I speak to Greek organizations, but also law enforcement agencies and parenting groups and basically, trying to get the word out, trying to get the message out about how to keep our community safe in order to avoid some of these horrible things that I see happen. And I got into this prevention work.

when I started having my babies. I've got two daughters, ages 20 months and four years old. And, you know, having these little babies just kind of got me thinking about.

How do I make the world safer for them? How do I make their communities safer? And how do I help kind of put an end to all of this horror before it happens? So now I feel good about where I am right now, trying to do as much prevention and education as possible and also being available for people if, unfortunately, when those bad things happen, they still happen and I can help them after the fact.

MIGHTY MERP (19:48.184)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (20:19.694)
So you mentioned that you talked to all these different groups. Do you think there's a specific either age group or group of people that the prevention and having the conversation is a better conversation or a more appropriate conversation? Because, you know, I mean, you talk about, you said you spoke at a parent, parenting groups. I'm sure what you're, what you're sharing at that level is different than what you're sharing.

Lindsay Lieberman (20:36.447)
Mm.

MIGHTY MERP (20:49.646)
on a to a fraternity that you're having a conversation with. So if you could pick like the ideal group that you would like to focus on for the prevention aspect.

Lindsay Lieberman (21:07.421)
Yeah, well, it's interesting because my feelings are that the earlier we start having these conversations, the better. And unfortunately, while it's super helpful to go into colleges and fraternities and have these discussions, for many people, it's actually, it's the first time they're hearing this and they're getting like a sense of sexual misconduct and consent and boundaries.

And it's gotta start so much earlier and so much younger. So I love to talk to parent groups about how they can encourage their little ones, toddlers, elementary school age students, to be safe online, what to look out for on the internet, how to make good decisions about what kind of activities they're doing online or who they're interacting with. And then as they get older,

talking about consent and sexual misconduct, because it can't be something that you're learning for the first time when you're already at college. It helps to have those conversations then, but hopefully the education really needs to start earlier. And there's obstacles with getting it in to curriculum earlier, because a lot of parents object.

to talking about sex. And so it's tricky.

MIGHTY MERP (22:35.022)
I know, as you're saying this, I'm thinking, I'm not sure how you're going to get this into any school systems or school districts, even though I agree with you and the whole consent and autonomy and those conversations are real conversations.

I'd love to hear how you teach about internet and social media. I mean, my kids at this point are 19, 21, and 23. They got, they all received phones at 13, really, when they were bar and bat mitzvahed in our house. We were, we thought that was the appropriate time. They were late compared to a lot of their friends.

I would love to hear from your perspective how you teach it. And I'm going to tell you that how we taught it to our kids about texting and social media. And it didn't always work, but, um, we did have some main general lessons. Um, but I would rather hear like how you talk to kids about, or parents about teaching their kids about, um, you know, I mean, you're dealing with social media, you're talking about, uh,

Kids are experimenting in middle school with sexting already. And then you have to worry about them also being a victim of predators online. So there's the protecting them as well as, protecting them from predators, but also protecting them from their lack of knowledge and understanding of what's appropriate and inappropriate. So how do you teach that?

Lindsay Lieberman (24:15.757)
Right. And before I go into that answer, I also want to just circle back on what you said earlier, that it would be very hard to get this into the school districts. So what winds up happening is because the school districts aren't willing to educate on these crucial topics, our kids are getting their education from pornography and from each other. And so, you know, they're, they're learning the stuff. They're engaging with this stuff, despite our

best efforts to try to keep them from seeing it. So wouldn't it be so much better if we could go in and talk about it with them in a healthy way instead of avoiding it, hoping that they're not gonna see it and engage in it, but they do. And then, you know.

MIGHTY MERP (25:01.27)
Right. I mean, if they are, if they have access to a phone, a smartphone or a computer, they can YouTube or Google or really, you know, every thought that comes into their head, whether, um, whether it's appropriate or not. And they don't even know sometimes whether it's appropriate or not. They're curious. They literally can type it and search it at that point.

Lindsay Lieberman (25:27.469)
I did not hear that last thing you said, I'm sorry.

MIGHTY MERP (25:30.427)
I said that when kids have access to smartphones and computers, one or the other, they can Google anything, any of their thoughts. Sometimes it's just curiosity, sometimes they don't know if it's appropriate or not, but it's there either on YouTube or Google. It's just so accessible in a way that it wasn't when we were younger.

You know, I think that people don't realize how detrimental having kids in elementary school have these devices that have access to these.

you know, information that they're not ready to process yet. And I'm just saying, I know my 19 year old was made fun of in elementary school because he didn't have a smartphone. And that was 10 years ago. So I can only imagine today what it's like.

Lindsay Lieberman (26:16.677)
So there.

Lindsay Lieberman (26:32.07)
Well, good for you for holding out and not giving him the phone.

MIGHTY MERP (26:36.178)
It was hard.

Lindsay Lieberman (26:38.097)
I'm sure, I'm sure. But there is a lot that parents can do. Having these conversations early and often about smart tech and being smart online, monitoring what their kids are looking at and doing, putting parental controls on their devices. I think a really important aspect of all of this is to make sure there's like an open.

back and forth dialogues with our kids so that they don't feel like if they see something online that's scary and they think, oh, I'm not going to tell my parents because I don't want to get in trouble. I think it's really important that they know that we should be the first people they go to if they see something scary and that they'll never be in trouble because obviously, you know, then we can help them process whatever it is that they saw or did and help solve the problem before it becomes bigger. And this particularly comes up a lot.

with sex-dorsion cases, which is one of the areas of cyber-sexual abuse that I handle. And it's when somebody on the internet pretends to be somebody else and is talking to somebody online, usually a vulnerable person, like a young person, they pretend to be, let's say, like a sexy woman who wants to have like video sex with the child that they're talking to on the other end, and the child thinks it's real.

and they start taking off their clothes or sending videos. And as soon as they provide that intimate, personal, or naked content, the wrongdoer on the other side of the internet says, now I have this content, I'm going to send it to your parents, I'm going to send it to your principal, your teachers, unless you give me more, unless you continue masturbating for me, unless you.

get money out of your parents, from your parents' account, whatever it is. And they basically wind up stuck in this really frightening cycle of being extorted on the internet. And so in those cases, it's so common, but it's so important that our kids know that they can come to us, that they won't be in trouble, that we will help them. And then we can, you know, put an end to it before it gets really bad.

MIGHTY MERP (29:01.85)
Mm-hmm. So I'm sure for many kids, if they're in that situation, the fear of telling their parents is worse than what probably would happen, but you know, and there's shame to it too, you know? So I, I'll...

Lindsay Lieberman (29:17.674)
Exactly.

Lindsay Lieberman (29:21.481)
Exactly. And it's so devastating because so often these young kids wind up taking like great lengths to end their pain and shame. And so there's been a handful of cases where young people have been extorted or sextorted and then sadly take their own lives. So it's so crucial that we are educating the kids about this and the parents and really encouraging this.

these safe conversations.

MIGHTY MERP (29:52.354)
Right. And so I know you indicated a few of the things that you say to parents. Make sure you put parental controls on or you check the phone. Do you have any specific do's or don'ts? Don't use this social media device. Don't allow a child under this age to have a phone. Do you think there's

set of easy pointers or guidelines for parents.

Lindsay Lieberman (30:25.401)
I don't think anything is easy or straightforward because I actually avoid saying, don't use this, don't do this, because you can't guarantee that your kids are gonna listen to you, they're gonna do it behind your back if you say don't do this. So my approach is to do everything more in the affirmative, like creating healthy habits instead of telling your kids what not to do because...

MIGHTY MERP (30:44.078)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (30:54.721)
As soon as we start telling them what not to do, they're gonna go and do those exact things. So, another, so some of those healthy, affirmative ways of handling tech in the house is to have boundaries around when we can use our phones and our computers, and maybe having everybody charge their devices overnight so nobody has their devices in their bedrooms, so that.

MIGHTY MERP (30:59.022)
All right. Yeah.

Lindsay Lieberman (31:22.529)
You know, your kids aren't by themselves on their devices up to who knows what. Um, and I also encourage parents to, to abide by the same rules and guidelines that they're trying to have their kids do. So the parents too will put their phones and their iPads in this like centralized location in the living room. So they also are getting a break from screen time. It just kind of leads to healthier families and more conversation.

screen free time. Oh, but I wanted to hear about, so how did you educate your kids?

MIGHTY MERP (31:53.902)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (32:00.51)
So, I think when your parent is a criminal attorney, whether they're a prosecutor or a defense attorney, they do hear lots of like, sort of either don'ts or you need to know this is illegal. So when they started with the social media and the being able to text.

First and I think biggest piece of advice that I gave them that I can still say to them now as adults and they laugh at it, which is don't send or don't send any messages or Google anything that you would be embarrassed for your mom, dad or grandparents to say. If you are sending a message that if I looked at, you would be...

embarrassed or, you know, ashamed, don't do it. Like that's the litmus test, you know? Um, and, um, I think it did resonate with them of understanding and not disappointing me or, you know, not that embarrassing you, like if it's gonna embarrass you, if I read it, you probably should not have sent it. Um,

Lindsay Lieberman (33:05.857)
Yes, yes.

Lindsay Lieberman (33:24.141)
And that's a great pointer, and I would say that as well, because that's really teaching them that nothing online is private. You can think you're having a private conversation with somebody, you can think you're sending a picture to somebody that would never share it with anybody, but as soon as anything is online, it could be uncovered. So I totally agree with that.

MIGHTY MERP (33:33.227)
Right.

MIGHTY MERP (33:47.05)
Right. So that was one thing. I will say I have boys, my boys are gonna love this. So I have four kids, I'm not gonna say who, so three of them are boys. And you know, when they're hitting that teenage years of puberty, it's not like, nobody's getting Playboy Magazine delivered to their homes anymore to look at pictures. So.

I did understand that there was a possibility that they would potentially type nude pictures or naked pictures. Because I was thinking my kids would still want to be appropriate, they might write naked pictures of 14-year-olds because they were 14. So I had the conversation of, you can't do it. It's child pornography. It's illegal.

it is age appropriate for you to be curious of seeing someone your own age. Um, you can't do it on the computer. It's illegal. And so those are the conversations, but I am going to tell you, Lindsey, that those type of conversations I continue to have, and it changes like when they had driver's license and I know it's a weird comparison, but you know, I, I'd have a case where, you know,

A young client would drink and drive and there'd be an accident or an injury or they left the scene and I'd have to come home and say like, you know, have those same type of don't do these things. You know, when I had, you know, a client, you know, in a serious leaving the scene of an accident case and go home and say, if you're in an accident, what do you do? And sometimes they wouldn't have the answer. They would. And they.

they'd look at me and I'd be like, you stop. You stop and you call the police, you know? And it's the same idea of, you don't always know until you need to know, so.

Lindsay Lieberman (35:52.561)
But that's so great that you ask them, if you're in an accident, what you do. Even if they didn't have the answer and it was a teaching moment, that's how I approach this work as well. It's teaching our kids to have analytical minds to ask questions and instead of saying, instead of giving instructions, see what they know and then compliment the knowledge that they have or correct it.

MIGHTY MERP (36:03.598)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (36:15.822)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (36:19.177)
And sort of asking those questions can really help them learn what they have to learn in these serious situations.

MIGHTY MERP (36:26.922)
Right. I mean, I will tell you that they know when they don't know the answer and they're out, you know, if it's involving police or if, you know, I had one of my kids was at a friend's house and the friend drank too much and there were no parents around. They knew to call me and I went over there. They know to call me and they know, and this is the benefit of having an attorney as a mom and a criminal attorney is that they don't ever have to say, I need to call my lawyer. They just say, I need to call my mom.

Lindsay Lieberman (36:56.785)
Right, right, they're so lucky to have you.

MIGHTY MERP (36:58.03)
And I would say to them, don't call your dad. Your dad loves you, but he's an art teacher. He cannot help you in any of these situations. You know? Yeah. So, but so that's, it's, it's very interesting though, because, you know, we talked about the school situation of like, schools don't want these things taught there. And yet the kids have access to their phone and technology in the schools, which would be

Lindsay Lieberman (37:06.482)
That's amazing.

MIGHTY MERP (37:26.634)
And I've had kids arrested in school for, for researching or looking up or typing inappropriate things. So it really is the best place for it to be taught.

Lindsay Lieberman (37:38.949)
Right, or one of the many places it needs to be taught. It should be talked about at home, it should be taught at school. I mean, it's just a huge part of our lives. Like to just ignore it and avoid it, hoping that it doesn't cause problems is just silly and stupid. Oh, I also wanted to comment on something you mentioned earlier about when your son...

you kind of had to give him instructions on what to Google when he was looking for porn, which is a totally natural, normal thing for him to do. But another important thing for people or parents to know and to talk about with their kids is not just looking at naked depictions of children being illegal or having that content is illegal, but also capturing the content. And so just even taking a picture of yourself, if you are a minor,

MIGHTY MERP (38:08.15)
Hahaha!

Lindsay Lieberman (38:33.297)
Even if it's for your own use, it is also the creation of child sex abuse material, and it's a crime. And so that's another area where things get really tricky, because if a child takes a picture and has produced this child sex abuse material, and let's say the picture gets out and it's being passed around school, this child goes for help. She goes to the school or she goes to her parents or the police.

MIGHTY MERP (38:38.389)
pornography.

Lindsay Lieberman (39:02.597)
They want to help her, but they don't know how. And ultimately they say, well, what you've done is a crime. You created the picture. So even though it's being passed around your school, we can't really do much for that unless we also bring charges against you. So let's just like push this under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. And so often.

MIGHTY MERP (39:22.466)
So that's in, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Finished, no, you were gonna say so often, it doesn't get, you don't think it gets dealt with because of that.

Lindsay Lieberman (39:26.586)
No, no, go ahead.

Lindsay Lieberman (39:33.429)
Oh, it doesn't get dealt with. The schools don't know how to handle it because let's say it's, you know, the girl took the picture and she sent it to the boy and the boy sending it around to his friends. Technically what the boy has done is illegal because he's committed revenge porn. Exactly.

MIGHTY MERP (39:51.286)
Distributing. Yeah. Even if it's not revenge porn, even if it's just like, you know, even if it's just stupid sharing, you know, not in a malicious way, it's a distribution of child pornography.

Lindsay Lieberman (40:07.393)
Exactly, exactly. So it's criminal because it's child pornography and it's criminal because it's the distribution of somebody else's intimate content without their consent. But if the girl goes for help, the police will ultimately often say, well, if we take action against him, we also have to take action against you. And, and so everybody just goes their separate ways and it's, it's kept pretty hush hush. And I have a big issue with this because for a lot of girls.

This is the first time that they wind up having some sort of privacy violation. And then when they go to get help, they're told that like, they've done something wrong, it's victim blaming and victim shaming and kind of teaches them that they're responsible when bad things happen to them. And sadly, you know, they wind up with this message that they shouldn't go for help when things happen.

MIGHTY MERP (40:59.08)
So, it's interesting that you say that because I handled a lot of these cases and there's been a number of them at least in the counties that I've worked in, which is all of South Jersey and many of the cases and their cases exactly the way you describe them. Usually it's a young girl.

high school student who's sharing a, I'll say, explicit picture. It doesn't have to be fully naked, but it's, you know, it's a part of her body or parts of her body. She's sending it and sharing it to her boyfriend. And then either they break up and he's sending it sometimes for malicious purposes, sometimes not. And I've had cases where the girl has done this several times.

In these cases, they never charged the girl down here. They never charged the girl, even though...

MIGHTY MERP (42:01.858)
The girl initially sends it. And as you said, sending it from the girl, we don't even need to say gender. It doesn't matter if it's a girl or a boy. The person who takes the picture and has it on their phone, if you're under 18, that is possessing child pornography. If you share it, that's a distribution. And I have seen many cases where it's only the people who receive it.

Lindsay Lieberman (42:12.095)
Right.

MIGHTY MERP (42:29.458)
and then continue to share it that have been charged. And usually they don't charge that individual who initiated it. And so I definitely understand the concern from the idea of victim blaming, because we don't, I think it is detrimental and especially because it is women, young women, that it is their first, usually somebody they trust that they're sharing the picture with.

But yet at the same time, it's the idea that anyone who receives it is getting charged as well, whether they requested it, whether they intended to get it. I've had clients that are like, I don't know, I just ended up on this chain and I received all these pictures. So it is a weird situation. The law in New Jersey, when they're juveniles though, that are receiving it, it's a very

is the idea that they're receiving diversions with courses on sexting and more of an educational background than keeping juveniles in the criminal justice system. The only times where they're really pursuing it, at least I'm in Atlanta, Cape May, Cumberland, and Ocean mostly. And the only juvenile matters that I see that they're really pursuing it is when

it's really done with the malice where the person is doing it because they're breaking up or they're angry or they're fighting. And in those cases, the courts really are not handling it in a, let's just take a class and a diversionary. I think there's a clear difference.

Lindsay Lieberman (44:15.449)
That's great. Yeah, I mean, you've got the intent there and that's really important. And I'm so glad to hear that these cases are being brought in your counties and that they're giving these kids exactly what I'm suggesting they should all have in the first place, right? That education. And so, so I'm so glad to hear that. Um, and you know, I think it's.

MIGHTY MERP (44:38.066)
It is interesting wherever you are in the, in the state, there is a difference between the counties. So, um, I really don't handle cases, you know, above ocean counties. So I will say whatever people consider central and North Jersey, I wouldn't know how they're being handled in that area.

Lindsay Lieberman (44:59.51)
Right.

I think just for pictures and for privacy, a big part of this is just a person's autonomy and rights to their body, of course. And so it's a lesson in if somebody, never mind children, if an adult takes a picture, captures themselves in a certain way and wants to share it with one person or two people, there's contextual consent. We should be allowed to share something.

personal and private with another person, with the understanding that the other person is going to keep it private and between the two of us. We do this all the time when we give store owners our credit card information or we give doctors our medical information. But when it comes to photos and videos, even though the laws are on the books, finally, it took a long time, it's still, I think people don't look at it in the way that maybe they should be. Because there's a lot of...

questions like, well, why did you take the picture in the first place? Why did you send the picture? Not for kids, because, you know, child pornography is a different story, but even, you know, just working with adults, there's still a lot of that victim blaming and shaming and, um, so I'm working towards changing that.

MIGHTY MERP (46:17.702)
No, I agree with you on that. And it's, you know, I think people reaction is right, you know, well, you sent it, you know, if I give you if you give something to the person, isn't it theirs, you know, and I think that the idea that was different, really, when it was pictures, right, or a note, it just with social media, it just seemed to change the landscape of it. So

Lindsay Lieberman (46:45.668)
Right.

MIGHTY MERP (46:46.846)
In addition to education and victim advocacy, is there anything else you're doing to try to change really the understanding of, you know, the laws and the behavior, I would say those two.

Lindsay Lieberman (47:03.321)
Yeah. Um, so I'm bringing lawsuits in court. Um, I just recently brought a suit in the Northern District of New York, um, for a revenge porn case. Um, so, you know, the, the laws are slowly developing and so these cases need to be brought, um, so that, you know, there's deterrence and, uh, and justice. Um, so, um, I'm also doing trainings with law enforcement so that

I can help teach officers and detectives how to speak with victims of these kinds of sexual privacy violations. And I'm also rolling out a new program where I'm going into personal injury law firms and like medical malpractice law firms and teaching their staff and their attorneys on how to be more victim, like trauma informed.

MIGHTY MERP (48:01.358)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (48:01.521)
how to talk to their potential client and their clients in a way that doesn't re-traumatize them. You know, it's all I've done my whole career is to work with victims or survivors of these kinds of violations. But I think so often people who work in regular personal injury firms or med mal, they don't realize or know necessarily how their behavior and their communication.

can impact their client or potential client in a negative way. And so I'm finding that, I mean, trauma informed care is so crucial all over the place, but even for a law firm, it's actually in their like financial interests to get trained on trauma sensitive communications. Even if, you know, a potential client calls their firm and it's not the case for them, but...

that potential client could have a bunch of friends with great cases. And if they want those referrals, you know, they need to treat that potential client with the utmost respect and dignity. And after somebody has been the victim of a crime or an accident, like they're really vulnerable and they need, they need all that care and compassion. And so I'm finding that firms are interested in, in learning more about this. Um, so it's another, it's another type of training that I'm

MIGHTY MERP (49:23.81)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Lieberman (49:29.061)
that I'm rolling out and doing.

MIGHTY MERP (49:31.322)
What was your undergraduate degree? Do you mind me asking? It seems like everyone who went to law school, most of us were political science. And so the trauma training that you've had, you had it through, uh, while you were a district attorney and since then.

Lindsay Lieberman (49:34.949)
political science.

Lindsay Lieberman (49:49.165)
Oh yeah, it's been ongoing. I mean, just working with victims, which I'm sure you are having the same experience as you work with victims as well, or even defendants. Even a defendant is someone who's been traumatized and needs that compassion and care. And it's just, it's not taught in law school, it's not common knowledge, but it's really important. It helps get better.

MIGHTY MERP (50:03.679)
Yeah.

Lindsay Lieberman (50:16.381)
outcomes and cases, it helps develop better relationships with your clients. So it's pretty important.

MIGHTY MERP (50:25.91)
Correct. And I always say it really, even in clients that you, potential clients that you can't help, just, and it's funny, I don't call it trauma informed care. I talk about the kindness of my office and the listening to our clients. Even, you know, we, I get people calling my office and asking me to handle every type of case from landlord tenant to

civil, you know, as well as suing civilly for the type of cases that you're handling that I don't, I don't handle any civil cases. And, you know, a lot of our day, my client, my staff contacts me all the time, do you have a referral? Do you, you know, do you have someone who can help and just spending those five minutes or 10 minutes with individuals, even though we know we cannot help them from what we do here.

So often at the end of the conversation, I say like, I can't help you call this person. You can let them know you talk to me. I'll say it doesn't get you anything other than, you know, that we spoke and I made the referral. And they're so appreciative just to have someone listen to them for a few minutes and take the time to refer them to someone who can help them. Just you know, as simple as I keep saying, like kindness, you don't know what other people are going through.

Um, you know, and I, my, my clients and their families are tough sometimes. And, you know, my staff is young there, you know, they're, you know, two years, a year out of college. And I say, just listen, you know, and, you know, tell them we'll make the referral or if it's one of our clients, you know, we'll make an appointment to talk to me or the other attorney. And, uh, and there are times they need to hang up, they need to like walk away and take a breath and, you know, but you know, that.

the time, genuine time with people, of not rushing them off the phone and genuine listening. You know, it builds goodwill for your law firm, even if they don't need us at that moment. Maybe they'll need us in the future, or maybe in a situation they're gonna meet someone else and they're gonna say, you know who can help you on this? And so I think what you're talking about, when I hear it, the trauma-informed care, I hear it.

MIGHTY MERP (52:53.238)
But I also think of like, you know, the customer service, the personalized care, the really listening to why an individual is calling a law firm, you know, because if someone's calling a law firm, they feel they need help that a lay person can't give them.

Lindsay Lieberman (53:11.625)
Exactly. So there's been some sort of trauma, otherwise they wouldn't need legal help. And, you know, I hear you on some of your clients and their family members being difficult, because oftentimes when there's been a trauma, everybody's got big emotions and it's a very scary, vulnerable time. So client management is definitely something that I've been working on and something that it sounds like your staff members are

MIGHTY MERP (53:24.984)
Yeah.

Lindsay Lieberman (53:39.853)
are getting really good training in so early in their career. But it's crucial to have when you're operating a law firm.

MIGHTY MERP (53:48.894)
Yes, yes. So any last things that you wanna share? I will say to you, your kids are at a fun age. Like, you know, I know they're little and you're probably with work and little kids, it seems like a lot, but at the same time, like, I don't know. I mean, I loved every age that my kids were, but at that age when they were toddlers and in that age group, they just...

everything was so easy, you know, even their worst days can be fixed with hugs and kisses and ice cream, you know.

Lindsay Lieberman (54:25.537)
It's true. They're so yummy. They're so cute. Everybody had a sick day today, so they're actually here. I hear them like screaming in the other room, but it's just so like, there's nothing better. I'm glad. I'm glad. But yeah. Yes. There's nothing better that I've done in my life than have these kids.

MIGHTY MERP (54:39.382)
I can't hear them if you want you to know. Yeah, I can't hear them, but yeah, but yeah, but they are at a funny.

Lindsay Lieberman (54:55.085)
and they're just everything to me. And they inspired me to start my own firm and to continue doing the work that I'm doing. So they're my inspiration and I hope to be a good role model for them. And I'm so impressed that you have four kids and it makes me kind of wanna have another or two. It's a lot.

MIGHTY MERP (55:14.242)
I don't want to get in trouble for that in the future. But yeah, so we went from one to three. So when people say to me, oh my goodness, you had a fourth. And I jokingly was like, we were already, we were already in a zone defense right away. But I loved having babies. I, you know, I probably would have had, you know, if we could afford 10 more, I just, I really loved having kids. But, you know, I,

Lindsay Lieberman (55:17.169)
Thanks for watching.

MIGHTY MERP (55:42.33)
was fortunate that I was able to teach when my kids were little at Rowan University. So not for the first three, but when the fourth one was born, I was home for a few years just teaching at Rowan University. And then I went back full-time when my youngest went to kindergarten. So I feel like I've had the best of all the worlds, you know, full-time working, part-time working, home with them, back to being a full-time attorney. So.

Lindsay Lieberman (56:11.825)
That's so great. And I think it's so important for other women to know that that's possible, that you can take that time off and you can still come back and you can do amazing things in your legal career, and that it doesn't have to be the choice. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I'm going to stay at home or continue being a lawyer.

MIGHTY MERP (56:30.842)
No, I just gave a speech at a woman's networking event. And I really talked about the fact that there were times that my career was moving very fast. And then times where I had to hit the brakes and really focused on being a mom and focused on my kids. And the truth is, is that all the success that I've had really professionally, if I was going to like look at the timeline, they all happened.

after I came back to work when my kids were a little bit older. And so I tell people like, there is no, you don't have to do it by your 30 or 40 years old. I went back to work, I think I was 39 turning 40, I'm now 52. So all my successes really have been in the last 13 years or so. So, yeah.

Lindsay Lieberman (57:28.165)
love that you're inspiring me because I'm 39 turning 40. So, so that's wonderful to think, you know, it can only go up and that's, that's wonderful.

MIGHTY MERP (57:31.534)
I'm sorry.

MIGHTY MERP (57:40.342)
That's great. Thanks, Lindsay. Thanks so much for reaching out and for talking. And just so you know, and everyone who's listening knows, if you're interested in knowing more about Lindsay Lieberman, about her law firm or how she can be an advocate, advocate for you or any individuals, and I'm going to say women that you might know, it'll all be on the Mighty Merp website and feel free to take a look.

Lindsay Lieberman (58:07.181)
Ooh, can I say one more thing?

MIGHTY MERP (58:09.183)
You can.

Lindsay Lieberman (58:11.241)
Men also need my help because men also wind up being victims of sexual privacy violations. So yes, most of my clients are women, but I don't want to close the door to any men or boys or anyone who identifies otherwise.

MIGHTY MERP (58:31.65)
Thank you. I should do better. I should know better and do better. No, but yes, I mean, I'm just saying that like, I think that, you know, we fall into these stereotypes, you know, but, but I too have had victims that are men as well. But you know,

Lindsay Lieberman (58:37.802)
No, what do you mean?

Lindsay Lieberman (58:54.817)
Yeah, no, the stereotypes exist for a reason. Absolutely, most of my clients are women, 100%. So this, I wouldn't, don't worry.

MIGHTY MERP (58:58.279)
Mm-hmm.

MIGHTY MERP (59:06.19)
Yeah, that's okay. Again, it was great talking to you and thanks again and we'll talk soon. Okay, Lindsay?

Lindsay Lieberman (59:15.994)
Thanks so much Melissa for having me. Happy Hanukkah!

MIGHTY MERP (59:19.426)
Happy Hanukkah to you too. I think Tom's gonna jump on now and he's gonna, oh, see, and then he's gonna tell us.

Lindsay Lieberman (59:22.592)
Bye.

Lindsay Lieberman (59:25.935)
Okay.