Go Limitless Retreats with Tracy Frederick

MIGHTY MERP (00:02)
Welcome back to the Mighty MERP episode. I'm Melissa Rosenblum, your host and also known as Mighty MERP. I'm here today with Tracy Frederick.

Okay, I was right. Tom, I just want you to know, Tracy's gonna keep laughing at us. My first intro was like the best intro I've done in a long time and you like, you killed that juice.

Tracy Frederick (00:32)
He killed it.

MIGHTY MERP (00:48)
back to the Mighty MERP Podcast. I'm Melissa Rosenblum, your host and also known as Mighty MERP. I'm here today with Tracy Frederick. Tracy is a lawyer, a former public defender at the Philadelphia Public Defender's Office, also a former assistant federal defender. She's the owner of her own law firm, life coach.

and now founder of a new business. And I would say that Tracy's a really great example of all the different paths a lawyer and especially a woman lawyer can take in her career. Welcome Tracy.

Tracy Frederick (01:30)
Thanks so much for having me, Melissa. It's great to see you.

MIGHTY MERP (01:34)
I know I haven't seen you in so long.

Tracy Frederick (01:38)
so long, but I will tell you, you look exactly the same. So that's a good thing.

MIGHTY MERP (01:44)
Thanks, it's a filter. So I think that we knew each other when I would say we were baby lawyers.

Tracy Frederick (01:53)
Yes, many, many moons ago, I remember when you left the state office. It was a long time ago.

MIGHTY MERP (02:01)
It was three pregnancies ago, four babies ago, right? It was after my youngest. So yeah, four kids in four years just tipped it over. I had a pivot for a few years.

Tracy Frederick (02:19)
I remember that. It's crazy. Crazy. I've had three, but they were spread out a little more than yours.

MIGHTY MERP (02:25)
Yeah, I was a little crazy. So you obviously are a lawyer and went to law school. And so I always like to ask, did you, when you were growing up, did you always want to be a lawyer? Was that a goal of yours initially? Did you know that was what you wanted to do?

Tracy Frederick (02:47)
It's really interesting. I sort of knew, like I was always really into crime shows, crime books, you know, watching things about trials, even when I was young, but I didn't know I really wanted to be a lawyer. There were no lawyers in my family and I did really well in college and so I just decided to go to law school, but I wasn't.

It wasn't like I knew I definitely wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer or what I really wanted to do. I just thought, okay, I'm a great student. I'll go to law school. And to be truthful, I hated law school. When I started law school, I despised it and was highly considering leaving because I was so unhappy. But after the first year, I interned at the San Diego Public Defender's Office and I found what I wanted to do. So then I was.

MIGHTY MERP (03:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (03:40)
super pumped to finish law school because I knew that what I was going to do was nothing like what I was experiencing in law school.

MIGHTY MERP (03:47)
Right. Where did you go to law school?

Tracy Frederick (03:50)
I went to BU Boston University.

MIGHTY MERP (03:54)
It's funny, I really enjoyed law school. I knew what I wanted to do. If I could be a law student or a law professor full time now, I probably would choose that. But I also did really enjoy being a lawyer. So after your first year, you knew public defense and you're from Massachusetts area?

Tracy Frederick (04:19)
Yeah, I grew up in Mass in New Hampshire, and that's sort of part of the reason I ended up back in Boston. I went to Penn State undergrad, left, and wanted to get back closer to home, so.

MIGHTY MERP (04:27)
Mm-hmm.

And how'd you end up in Philly at the public defender's office there?

Tracy Frederick (04:37)
That was, I knew I wanted to be a PD. And at the time, and I'm sure it's pretty much still the same, like Philly was one of the best offices in the country. And so it came down between Philly and Miami. And I just loved Philly. So I ended up going there and it was definitely the right decision for sure.

MIGHTY MERP (04:50)
Mm-hmm.

I always tell young lawyers that if they want to learn how to be a trial attorney and they're interested in criminal defense work, you will be taught from the day you walk in till the day you leave how to be an effective attorney.

Tracy Frederick (05:12)
It's so true. I mean, that place has great training, amazing mentors. I mean, I can't imagine any place that would be better for learning.

MIGHTY MERP (05:22)
Right. So you went from the state to being a public defender in the state to being a public defender at the Federal Public Defender's Office. Was that in Philly as well?

Tracy Frederick (05:32)
It was, initially I was in Philly. I went to the federal office in Philly and I was there for quite a few years. And then my husband got a job transfer to Connecticut. And so I was actually able to transfer to the federal defender in Connecticut. And that was the last place I practiced as a federal defender. I really, really enjoyed being... No, no, go ahead.

MIGHTY MERP (05:55)
Big difference between, oh, I'm sorry.

I was just going to ask whether what you think or thought the big difference between being a public defender as a state, as working for Philadelphia, versus handling federal crimes.

Tracy Frederick (06:13)
It was so different. The money is definitely different. That's the thing that everybody when you're young is like, I just want to make more money. That was a huge difference. But honestly, I did so many jury trials at the public defender's state office in Philly. I had to try over 30 cases just for juries and then forget all the waivers.

And I loved it. It was kind of like, you know, fly by the seat of your pants, be creative, you know, a little bit more loose. And then when I went to the federal office, unfortunately, especially when I first started, the federal guidelines were, it was just, it was, I think it was mandatory initially, and then it changed, but you just didn't have a lot of leeway. And the feds really weren't indicting cases unless they were...

very solid for them. So there were not a lot of trials. A lot of pleas. You didn't win the trials, you did try. Generally, it was so different than the state office.

MIGHTY MERP (07:08)
Yeah.

Well, I always say of what my experience is, and I used to handle federal cases more when I started in private practice, and I really opt not to for the most part unless the person comes in and I can make them into a witness pretty quickly, either a material witness or a cooperating witness. And the reason why is I always tell people, by the time you know you're being charged federally,

The case is usually all prepared and like wrapped up in a nice present. And when they like execute the warrants, they're just like fixing the bow on it. And then it's like all done, right? They're ready to try it at that point where in the state cases, you know, it's really, as you said, it's like.

Tracy Frederick (08:01)
It's so true.

MIGHTY MERP (08:10)
very fast and it's, you know, these charges. I jokingly say I could go to a police department and say Tracy Frederick just pushed me down and still $20 and half the departments would be like, you're charged with robbery now, right?

Tracy Frederick (08:23)
Totally. Yeah, it is very different. It's, and it's hard. And I think that was a hard transition for me initially because you went from winning so many cases in Philly and really getting a fair trial to go into federal court where you felt like everything was just stacked against your client because they'd wired tap for so long and done all these things and had all these cooperators. And by the time you come in, you know, it's just too late to even help have to, you know, you feel your help because.

MIGHTY MERP (08:25)
So.

Tracy Frederick (08:51)
Nobody needs an attorney more than somebody with it stacked against them that hard. But at the same time you can't really do much You know you find out your clients given a statement already, you know, like they've already talked to him I mean, it's just hard and frustrating sometimes especially for the defendants

MIGHTY MERP (09:07)
I'm sure. So yeah, don't give statements. Every podcast I just pretty much shout, don't talk to police, don't give a statement. So in between this from Philly to Connecticut, and then you went into your, you opened up your own firm. So I'm going to ask a weird question.

Tracy Frederick (09:15)
Oh gosh, I know.

MIGHTY MERP (09:31)
Maybe it's not weird, but you said you had three kids. Where are the kids in between on this, as you're building your career and your reputation and becoming a trial attorney and then opening up your own practice? Where were the kids in this?

Tracy Frederick (09:49)
The kids were, so when I was at the state office, I didn't have kids, which allowed me to work tons of hours and kind of build up my reputation and the learning that you talked about there. When I went to the federal office, I actually went there as job share because I knew I was about to have kids. So I went there as a part-time attorney and I had two, my two oldest.

back to back there, they're 10 months apart and the oldest is adopted. So it was crazy, cause I had these two babies. And as you know, cause you had four of them like that. And so I was at the federal office in Philly and then I had my third, about five years later, six years later, and I was still at the federal office in Philly, but I then left to go to Connecticut within like the first, within his first year.

So I was always at a federal defender while I had the kids, you know, when they were born. Um, when I got to Connecticut, I really started getting challenged with the balance. Um, because the way the courts were set up in Connecticut, there were three different federal courts that were not close to each other, like driving. The prison was a two hour drive away in Rhode Island. Um, and there was just so much time burned with travel.

MIGHTY MERP (11:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (11:13)
And I started feeling super pressured and overwhelmed trying to care for the kids, you know, while I was there. And I went back and forth there. I went part-time, I went full-time because I was still working full-time. So I'm like, why am I giving up half the salary? I'm just gonna go full-time to the point where I burned out so much that I stepped away from it. And so I gave my notice, laughed, and...

MIGHTY MERP (11:21)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (11:42)
I just wasn't sure what I was gonna do at that point. And so I took only about five months or so before I decided to open up my own practice because I felt like if I did that, maybe I could kind of like create what I wanted, control my schedule a little bit more, which worked to some extent, but it wasn't the magic end all be all. So.

MIGHTY MERP (12:05)
Yeah, there's a lot of other responsibilities having your own firm. There's, you know, so there's the benefit when you work for either a state job or a federal job of certain guaranteed salary and benefits, which is really nice. Even when I worked with my former partner, it was a guaranteed paycheck every month.

and there's comfort in that, you know, of knowing you're going to get a check. The opening up your own business, there can be that freedom of coming and going or working around your kid's schedule. But there's also that pressure of bringing in business and making money, which is, you know, can be extremely stressful.

Tracy Frederick (12:59)
Yes, it can. I think that it's just, you know, as a mom, it's, you just feel this pressure all the time because you feel pressure from work, like I need to be producing and cranking it out. And I'm so type A that I want everything to be perfect. And I want to give it all my all. And then with the kids, you feel the same way, like somehow you need to be mom of the year and do all the things and

it just gets to a point where it's not realistic. Something's gotta give. For me, my health gave. That was a big issue for me. I ended up having a very serious heart issue after my youngest was born. And even that wasn't really enough for me to slow down, initially. It ultimately was like the first glimmer of going, you need to make a change. But I feel like women so much, we just don't listen to ourselves. And we don't listen to what

MIGHTY MERP (13:40)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (13:56)
our bodies are telling us, you know, or our stress levels are telling us, like whatever those things are. And I'm always trying to tell young lawyers, there are ways to like, make some changes that doesn't mean you need to quit your job. But just to do things a little bit differently that might give you some relief.

MIGHTY MERP (14:15)
Right. I always say too that there's, if you like being a lawyer, and I did when I was younger, when I loved it at the public defender's office, but then I taught at Rowan when my youngest was born after that at Rowan University, because at the time when my youngest was born, it was a four-year-old to two-year-olds and a one-year-old.

and I couldn't keep up with the pace of being a lawyer. And so what I always describe it as is that I had to tap the brakes professionally. I didn't fully stop working. I was doing something with my legal career. I was teaching as an adjunct professor, but I tapped on the brakes so that I could be that.

mom for my kids and I'm type A. I think most women lawyers, successful lawyers are, especially trial attorneys. And so I was able to be the super mom that I wanted to be when they were little. And I was still working and I didn't go back to work full time until my youngest went to kindergarten. And I did go back part-time. My job was part-time for like 30 seconds. And it was the same thing. If I'm working full-time hours.

then I should get paid full-time work. And I tell young lawyers now that I probably have been more successful the second time, I call it my second time lawyering, coming back at closer to 40. And I also tell young lawyers that I think all the success, like the success that people see of like acknowledgements and awards and you wanna be like this attorney have come.

after the age of 40 years old. And so I think young lawyers think there's a race to get it all done at a certain age. And I don't really believe in that anymore.

Tracy Frederick (16:17)
Yeah, that's so true. I've never even thought of that. But the pressure you put on yourself as a young lawyer to get all the achievements and, you know, get the recognition for everything you're doing. And you're right, the truth is most of that really doesn't happen until later in your career anyway, when you've spent a lot of time gaining a reputation, gaining experience, you know, all the things that go along with time.

MIGHTY MERP (16:42)
Yeah. I mean, I remember at the public defender's office, like when, you know, we started in a group of a class of attorneys and they would move attorneys after, you know, anywhere from two months to three months to the next unit. And there always had to be people that move first and then people that move second and move people that move last. And I would say I was not ever the first attorney in the group to move.

in hindsight, like at the time it seemed so big and now I'm like, you know, it's just such a small thing in my career. Nobody would remember, you know? So, so, so you pivoted, which is what I describe as realizing that whatever that pace is and that working is.

Tracy Frederick (17:19)
Right? So true.

MIGHTY MERP (17:36)
is no longer bringing you the fulfillment or the joy that it did and you decided to pivot. So I know you mentioned you had some health issues. Were there other issues or reasons of pivoting? Because you're, if I'm right, you're not practicing law anymore,

right?

Tracy Frederick (17:54)
No, I've totally shifted. Yeah, there were...

MIGHTY MERP (17:58)
So it was a few pivots in between though, it was, right?

Tracy Frederick (18:01)
There were a couple of pivots in between. Like I went to my own practice. I did that after my health issue. So I didn't really slow down initially as I probably should have. And, but it became exactly what you're saying, like increasingly apparent to me that I just could not continue to keep that pace and practice law the way that I needed to practice law.

And so, or be a mom the way I needed to be a mom. Like those two things just were not lining up anymore. So some of the things that became really challenging as things progressed, two of my kids had pretty profound learning disabilities. And so I was just constantly in IEP meetings, constantly advocating. It's just, people don't know unless they're in ed law or have a child, like how much extra work goes into that. And

You have to do it, you want to do it. But it's a reality in terms of just your schedule and trying to schedule in all of these extra meetings. So that became more challenging.

MIGHTY MERP (19:08)
And you have to advocate in public schools. You have to advocate because if you're not there to do that, advocating anyone with a child that has either an IEP or five or four or any other special needs, if you're not the one there ensuring it, whether you're an attorney or not, just being there as a mom, then if they're not, I'll say many schools, if they don't need to give the services, if they're not being...

pressure to give the services. They don't always give the services.

Tracy Frederick (19:41)
It's true, you have to always be on top of it, which is a full-time job in and of itself. You know, it can be, especially with multiple kids. And I was doing that and I was like...

pushing through and kept saying, you know, it's all right. You can still manage all this. It's still all afloat. Like it's going to be okay. And then my son became very ill with an autoimmune disorder. And that was like the nail in the coffin really, because I had no choice. I was, it was so disruptive that I just had to step away from my practice. And I had my own practice at that point. So I quickly had a pivot and just...

MIGHTY MERP (20:09)
Thank you.

Tracy Frederick (20:22)
start getting rid of cases, which you know, owning your own practice is stressful because you've got all these obligations and different things. So, but when you're faced with a crisis, you just deal with it. So.

MIGHTY MERP (20:36)
Right, you focus the child first. How old was your child?

Tracy Frederick (20:40)
At the time he was five, very young. And so, and this was all happening like in the middle of the pandemic, you know, early on really in the pandemic. And so there were just so many things going on, you know, between everything's, you know, on Zoom with court and everything was just a little bit strange.

We're trying to figure out what's going on. We figured it out, but I just knew there was no way at that point that I could continue. There's no way my husband and I could continue in these demanding jobs. And I knew I needed to be there, that I wouldn't be comfortable if I wasn't there. So I quickly started moving away, got rid of almost all my cases, but for one that I kept, because I thought it was gonna resolve, still doesn't have a verdict, a ruling on it, which is crazy.

So that was where like the real pivot came that kind of forced me into a change and we moved at that time to once he was getting better we knew what was going on we ended up moving up to New Hampshire and so

MIGHTY MERP (21:44)
Yeah, so I have to interrupt you and ask how your son is because I can't, this is like I can't move on to the rest. I'm sorry.

Tracy Frederick (21:52)
I know, he's doing great. He's no, he's doing great. It's one of these things that we still like have some little ups and downs with it, but he's doing great. So thank God, but it was a long haul to get there. So thanks for asking. But that was the shift kind of like with him when that happened and then I really did step away. I realized that I'd need.

MIGHTY MERP (22:19)
Right. And I'm going to interrupt you on the, now that we know that he's okay, about the closing of firm, closing a practice. It is really hard legally to shut down a law firm, especially when you have clients that paid you money, that there might be, you know, it's not as easy to just say, I'm done. You have to let the...

Let the clients know you have to write letters. You might have to have other lawyers step in. It is not just here's your file and I'm done. It's not simple like that. No.

Tracy Frederick (23:00)
No. It was a lot.

And I just took it step by step, you know, and plus it was the first time I'd done it, right? So I had to make sure that I did all the things correctly. I mean, that was the other thing. And even now, still with my website, I'm still not my website, my email, I'm still monitoring because if anything weird comes in, you know, you've got to handle it. So I feel like I'm knocking on, what does I say this, at the point now where everything has settled out and if something comes up that's critical, someone will just call me.

MIGHTY MERP (23:20)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (23:33)
But it was, it was complicated for sure.

MIGHTY MERP (23:37)
Mm-hmm. Right. Well, they know you're not practicing now. So if it came up with your name on it, that makes a huge difference. And I don't know, I'm sure you've listened to every Mighty MERP podcast that there is, but one of my friends, Meg Horner, who was a criminal defense attorney, who actually worked at the district attorney's office in Philadelphia while we were both there, she closed her criminal practice. She's been closed now.

Tracy Frederick (23:59)
Remember

MIGHTY MERP (24:04)
I think a little more than a year. And she still has like one or two cases that she hasn't been able to completely shut down. And, you know, the courts here know that I'm friendly with her. And every once in a while, her name will come up and I'll say, she's not handling that case anymore. Or the judge will say, I've stood in on a case recently. And the judge called me sidebar and said, I thought that the practice was closed. And I said,

It is. This is like the one remaining case, which is why I'm here handling it for her. So it takes, it's over a year. It's been a long process.

Tracy Frederick (24:42)
The same thing happened to me. I didn't officially close the doors probably until this May or June last year because I just had some things lingering. So I had to keep the business entity open just in case those things came through. And finally I was like, okay, I can close this down. But yes, things linger. And I do think you're right. Once people know, but it takes a while for everybody to know that you're not practicing anymore. So.

MIGHTY MERP (24:52)
Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. So that was the big pivot. So what are you doing now? And I also love to ask how you got there because I think that's interesting. I'm assuming just from like sort of how you pivoted to begin with.

Tracy Frederick (25:28)
Yeah. When I was trying to decide, you know, even when I had my practice, I got my own coach. I think I heard a podcast, heard a coach. I hadn't been familiar with coaching at the time.

And my coach is Wendy McCallum, who's great. And so I, and she's also a former lawyer, Canadian lawyer, turn coach. And so I discovered coaching. I was working through kind of what I was going to do. What did this look like? Because I felt like my identity was completely wrapped up and being a defense attorney. Like that was it, that's who I was. And it was a massive shift to step back, but I realized that

I couldn't be trying cases the way I wanted to anymore. That just was not practical with the demands in my personal life. And I needed to find a way to accept that, move forward. And in that timeframe, I got certified. I've had several certifications since, but I became a certified coach. Not quite sure like at the time what I was gonna do with it, how it was gonna work, but.

In the process of doing that, I've sent, now I'm doing two things with the coaching. I'm coaching at the Defender Association, new managers. So I'm doing executive coaching, which is so great because I feel like I'm still contributing to the cause and the office that I love so much, but doing it in a way that I can manage, which is, you know, would I love to be there trying cases? Sure, that would be amazing, but it's just not realistic.

MIGHTY MERP (26:56)
Okay.

Tracy Frederick (27:09)
with the time demands that that.

MIGHTY MERP (27:09)
Are you doing that with the Defender Association in Philly or just different Defender Associations?

Tracy Frederick (27:14)
In Philly right now, I'm doing it in Philly. It's awesome. And I also co-founded a retreat, Women's International Retreat Business with a business partner, Lori Martin, and we are hosting retreats. It's called Go Limitless Retreats. The website's letscolimitless.com.

MIGHTY MERP (27:17)
That's great.

Tracy Frederick (27:36)
And we take women that are literally in the same position I was in, and Laurie's been there too, that are just feeling overwhelmed and stuck and don't know what to do next, and just can't, like they know something needs to change, but they can't figure out kind of how to even start, which I felt in that space for quite some time before I made the changes that I needed to.

So we try to jumpstart that on a five-day retreat where you're away from everything, you're disconnected, doesn't need to be 100%, but as much as possible. And we do a bunch of workshops in the five days that are like melded directly into the environment. So it's fun, it's definitely geared towards type A women. It's so funny when we do calls, when we do sales calls with women.

you feel like you're talking to yourself, like a younger version. I'm like, oh, hopefully I can break her of this insanity before I did. I waited too long. Hopefully, you know, we can influence some of the younger girls to see the light a little bit sooner and make some changes that make their lives a little bit less hectic.

MIGHTY MERP (28:41)
Yeah, I think that, I think I'm a few years older, but I always consider us of the same contemporaries. And I feel like our generation of women who were, you know, I know that I was, grew up being like the first athletic group of women who played sports, like my, we didn't have travel teams or all-star teams until I was hitting middle school, and then I was in that first group.

And we were told that we could do anything and be anything, at least I was, by both my parents, but especially my father, who loved the fact that I was this tiny kid who was very competitive and athletic, and that transformed into my law practice and that competitiveness.

But I think that the idea that we took of we could do it all and got interpreted to, we should do it all. And so we did, you know, we had these high careers and we also had these families, but we, you know, I would say I had a very traditional marriage still. Like I was still like doing everything at home and doing everything at work and wanting to have like,

you know, the perfect birthday parties and have everything look good and, you know, still bring the cupcakes in with the spiderweb designs for the Halloween party and still have this career. And I just think it becomes overwhelming when you're trying to have that high level in every aspect, especially when you might not have a partner that is, you know,

I will say my husband was great in so many ways, and but he is 14 years older than me, and he's a baby boomer. And I think he really did expect me had this like traditional, like you're the wife, you do everything. It wasn't really equal in that house, you know? And I do think that, you know, as someone who's a parent of kids in college and a little older, I think young women will not accept or,

except everything that we did. I think they're gonna say, we're not doing it all. Like we did it all. Does that make sense?

Tracy Frederick (31:10)
It really does because I've had this same conversation with a girlfriend recently, and you're the only other person I've heard say it, also in our age group, which is exactly that. I think because we were that generation that grew up as kind of the first women that were expected to be able to do anything different than our moms.

we took that to mean we had to and everything we did had to be perfect, right? And it's not true. And then I felt like even with the Charles Sandberg, lean in, you can do it all. Like, you can't do it all. It's just not realistic. Now, I'm not saying, no, you can't be a CEO and have kids or.

MIGHTY MERP (31:38)
Thank you.

Tracy Frederick (31:57)
Of course, people do it all the time, but there's a cost to everything. And if you're not willing to admit that and kind of plan your life for that, it just becomes untenable and unmanageable. So I'm fortunate in that my husband actually has been so involved and picks up so much slack, but I still find myself feeling guilty about that. Thinking, well, I should be able to do all this. Like, why do I have to have Seth handle X, Y, and Z?

MIGHTY MERP (32:21)
Yeah.

Tracy Frederick (32:26)
Which is crazy. I mean, they're both of our children. They're all our children, right? We're both the parents. But I could see absolutely, especially, I forgot your husband's a lot older. It makes a difference. I mean, they view things differently. Each of our generations does. So I hope you're right that these... No.

MIGHTY MERP (32:29)
I'm sorry.

Yeah, and I don't think he consciously did it. Yeah, I don't think it was a conscious decision. I think it was how he was, you know, sort of raised an expectation. Shonda Rhimes has a quote that I always relate to. I've said this to other women. Some of them have agreed and some of them haven't, but she talks about being this major writer and producer, and she has said, like, when I'm achieving all of this at work,

I'm usually failing at something at home. And when I'm able to accomplish and be that super mom at home, I'm probably failing something at work with the idea that, you know, you can't be at that highest level with everything all the time. Or, you know, people talk about the balls in the air. How many balls in the air can you juggle before something falls?

Tracy Frederick (33:39)
Yeah, I totally relate to that quote because I feel that way. I feel like when I'm killing it at home, I'm really dialed in to what's going on at home, I am missing something elsewhere. And then vice versa, I mean, launching this business recently, I've had to put a lot of work into it and I'm working at night and doing these things, which absolutely it's not long-term and it's already slowing down now that our marketing's out. But...

It was a lot and I always, and I still suffer from that mom guilt, you know, of if I am putting a ton of energy into work, then, and I'm not doing it at home, I feel guilty. And then if, you know, the same thing, if I'm not doing stuff that I feel like I should be doing for work because I'm at home, I'm feeling guilty. And that's the struggle that many of us have faced. So it's, and it's tough.

MIGHTY MERP (34:32)
Yes. So the retreats that you do, which is so interesting to me, is it... So I get that there's this building workshop built into the retreats, but are the retreats also vacation or travel retreats? Is there like a component of relaxation or traveling

that's hand in hand with the...

Tracy Frederick (34:53)
Yeah, there's both. Definitely there's both. So the whole idea is right now we're focused on, we're in Costa Rica primarily, in the blue zone of Costa Rica. So this area where people live longer than anywhere in the world, it's just this beautiful place. They're eating all local foods, everything sourced locally. So.

MIGHTY MERP (35:05)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (35:18)
Our retreats, we're staying at beautiful places. There is air conditioning. We're not that natural. With an executive chef, great food, awesome excursions that are like local things, that are, you'll go out for a whole day and go to a volcano with hot springs and mud baths.

So it's very much a vacation. There's definitely relaxation built in. We've got yoga in the morning. We do sound baths every night. So it's a mix. I didn't wanna have been on a bunch of retreats trying to like curate this. And we didn't want it to be that it was so intense that you felt like you didn't come back relaxed at all. But...

What I've said is, and I don't know if you've ever done this, but when I was my most burnt out, I remember I would say to my husband, that's it, I've got to get away for like three or four days. I'm going myself. I'm just doing nothing. Like I'm going to go to a beach, I'm going to read, and that's it. So I would do that. And I would feel great while I was there for a few days, feel like I was kind of recharging. And then I would come back and within 48 hours,

I felt just as overwhelmed because I went back to the same exact patterns and situations I'd left. And so our goal is to try to get people to really deep dive on this stuff while they're with us so that they can go back and bring this change with them and really implement it into their lives so that there is real change. This isn't just like a fun five day vacation, but instead you're going to actually bring a bunch of these tools home with you and hopefully make your life easier. So that's our goal.

MIGHTY MERP (37:06)
Yeah, well I'm impressed you had 48 hours when you got home from any vacation. I feel like I had like three hours and then, you know, walking in the door. But what I would say also is you said that, you know, you had this like, besides the health scare that you ignored or you minimized, it wasn't until it was your child that tipped the scales for you.

I will say I had a child who had some health issues when they were about 12. And I did have to kind of resituate a lot of my, I was literally in court, like having to run out of court to go to appointments. And I would get a call that there was an emergency. And I would say it really, I still tried to juggle it all.

And it's a shame that a lot of women feel like don't take that deep breath until there's that something that's tipping the scales so much that you can't breathe anymore or you can't continue at that level that you are, you know?

Tracy Frederick (38:20)
Yeah, that's, it's really what I've, what I've been trying to share with people is exactly that. Like, can you, can you try to see this now and make the shift before the emergency happens, right? Because let's hope it's not with your child or your parent or something, right? Because life happens. But if you're operating at that level of stress all the time.

it's going to catch up with you in some way at some point. It's inevitable. And that could even be like your family life's falling apart, right? Because you're just frazzled all the time and your relationship with your kid is suffering. It could be so many different things, but if you stop and realize, like you are so overwhelmed that if somebody knocks on your door, you can't even fathom how you're gonna deal with another thing at work, you need to reassess.

And so many women are running through the day every day like that.

MIGHTY MERP (39:14)
Right.

Yeah. And I think people are reassessing. I think there is this realization that it doesn't have to be so hard. And what I would say to all moms is, and you're still in the thick of it, right? Like all your, your youngest is what eight or nine?

Tracy Frederick (39:34)
He's eight. I'm in the thick of it. Yeah.

MIGHTY MERP (39:38)
Right. So my kids are, you know, I have three in college, one who graduated. And I'm going to tell you, it doesn't end like your kids are in college. If they, one calls me and they're sad or sick or, or something disappointed them. It, it hurts my heart just as much. But I, I jokingly say like I had with all my kids, like probably a crisis with each of them, because that's life.

Tracy Frederick (39:45)
I'm sorry.

MIGHTY MERP (40:05)
And then, you know, while my kids were teenagers, I got divorced and I thought like, oh my goodness, I'm a, you know, I'm primarily a single mom. The kids always stayed with me 24 seven. They didn't, you know, they would see their dad, but it would be an R in the, in the home. And then I always kept thinking of, um, Oh, it'll get easier when they're in college or it'll get easier when, you know, it'll get easier when I have one in college or I have three in college or they're all in college.

And I'm just gonna tell everyone, with every cycle of life, there's other burdens. And I'm gonna say, I thought I was gonna be an empty nester. My mind was looking forward to the empty nester, and I'm now a primary caregiver to my mother who has dementia. And I thought parenting was hard, I thought lawyering was hard. Oh my goodness, this is like...

truly the hardest thing I've ever been through. I don't think we've been, I don't think I was warned about this, being a caregiver to a parent. And so my point is there's always something that's going to be hard in one's life. And if it can't, if you're at the point where you're always going to be thinking that you're gonna break, if one more thing is on your plate, then that's when you have to take back, take a step back. I mean, I think it's amazing.

you know, what you're offering to women to be able to hopefully realize it before they're like, you know, completely overwhelmed, exhausted or broken, right?

Tracy Frederick (41:45)
Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, it's true. I mean, life is like half good and half bad. That's just the way it goes, right? So, you know, other things are going to come your way. And if you're already at the point where you feel like you literally can't handle anything else, that's just, it's no way to live. It's not fulfilling. Always something. And I think if you're in that space,

MIGHTY MERP (41:59)
Yeah.

No, because there's always something. Yeah.

Tracy Frederick (42:09)
you're kind of looking for the always something, like you're looking at everything negatively because you just can't see it any other way. And if instead, like, you know, my mom is sick as well, similar situation. And I try to say, I could be focusing on like the negative hard all the time, but instead I think, you know what, focus on this awesome afternoon you just had where you connected, it felt so great, because you might not have that again. You don't know.

MIGHTY MERP (42:14)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (42:39)
you know, so we think things are so hard but things can get worse, you know, you don't know. So it's like we do it, it's the truth, you gotta just cherish like, you know, the pieces of it that are working or the like glimpses you get in a day, something awesome, a great connection you have with someone you love, like just cherish that because those are the things I think that get us through the hard times.

MIGHTY MERP (42:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So where are you now living? I can see your beautiful backdrop of woods and trees. Gotcha.

Tracy Frederick (43:12)
in New Hampshire. New Hampshire, and it's awesome.

MIGHTY MERP (43:18)
And so how many trips do you do? I was curious where your trips are, but you said it's mainly in Costa Rica right now.

Tracy Frederick (43:28)
It's mostly in Costa Rica right now. They're generally like about every eight weeks so that the schedules shifts once in a while based on our availability. The plan is to expand. The plan is going to be to hire other coaches because we've created this program and we'll have other people that can run the program and we wanna be able to offer way more of these retreats in a lot of different places. But I wanted to first dial it in and make sure that we had everything.

as good as we could get it before we brought other people in and expanded. Because it's difficult every time you try to find a new location, you've got to build up again all the vendors, you know, make sure that everything is how you want it. And it takes work. But the idea will be ultimately to expand.

MIGHTY MERP (44:21)
Gotcha, and I'm gonna ask because I don't I could see this coming You said that you have a specific program. Is there a book coming out too?

Tracy Frederick (44:30)
Not yet, but maybe someday. How about you?

MIGHTY MERP (44:37)
No, I'm just as I as I like to say, I'm focused on the law firm and building the practice and you know, I'm going to I'm going to share that today is my five year anniversary and which is thank you. And it started with just me and now I'm proud to say that I have two full time assistants both college graduate young women who

Tracy Frederick (44:51)
Congratulations, that's great.

MIGHTY MERP (45:05)
criminal justice majors and they thought about law school, they're still thinking about law school. They're young, they're like young 20s. And I have a new associate with me for about six months and I'm sort of thrilled about just building the business. I have talked about this, I really enjoyed the marketing that I didn't know I was able to do, because as a public defender, you don't have to market yourself. But I love that and I love the Mighty MERP podcast.

The only other focus is teaching right now. I enjoy teaching. I look forward to doing CLEs. I'm doing some in the spring. And that's really my focus, you know? But it's all good. Even the taking care of the mom, it's hard, but it's good. I just, when I was talking about it, it was more about like, I just didn't know. Like that's, you know, people talk about when you're

When you're pregnant, people talk to you about having kids and raising kids and you might not really know but you sort of know, but the taking care of the parents is like something that I think people don't talk about because it is hard.

Tracy Frederick (46:19)
Yeah, I agree that you don't feel prepared. And it felt for me like when this stage of life came, it almost seemed like it happened overnight in terms of like the role shifting with our parents.

MIGHTY MERP (46:33)
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's the other thing is that I'm really now the mom to my mom, you know, and, you know, she's good in a lot of ways. She can take care of her own needs and get dressed and feed herself and, you know, but, you know, I give her medicine and it's just even little things. I laugh at it, but she'll be like, I'm not supposed to be taking this. And I'm like, no, this is your medicine.

And then she like, will argue with me. And then I'm like, mom, do you think I'm giving you the wrong medicine? And she's like, no, no. And it's just like, it's just sort of funny, but yeah. Again, it's one of those like things that I would, I would share with other people because it's just something unexpected and just something that I do think that, that you get to a point in life where.

It's hard because we're sort of sandwiched into being caregivers to our children and caregivers to our parents. And, you know, it's just an extra layer of responsibility. And for people that are the captains of their families or type A personalities, it's just one more responsibility.

Tracy Frederick (47:48)
It's true and you know, you just, excuse me, you're the one that just takes it upon yourself, right? Like it's sort of seems with that type of personality, everybody looks to you to make those decisions and here you are, you're the one doing it. So it's hard, but you're right, no one talks about it. And it's helpful to talk about these things because at least I would have felt more prepared.

MIGHTY MERP (48:06)
Yeah.

Tracy Frederick (48:14)
for so many things in midlife if they had just been talked about a little bit more.

MIGHTY MERP (48:19)
Right, which is what's so great about your new company and the retreats and the fact that it's all women who are, I like what you said, high achieving women that hopefully they're participating before they had the total overwhelms moment.

Tracy Frederick (48:42)
Exactly, that's the goal.

MIGHTY MERP (48:45)
So, well, I wish you all the success in the world. I'm definitely going to look at the website. And I do know a lot of women that fit into this category, Tracy. I'm sure you do, too.

Tracy Frederick (48:59)
I do feel free to share. Yes, I do. There are a lot of lawyers that fit into this category.

MIGHTY MERP (49:07)
I know, but I jokingly say like all my mom friends when my babies were little, like they were all, like whether they were doctors or rabbis or working at hospitals or lawyers, they were all like ridiculously high achieving. And I've talked to many of them and you know, there have been things at where we are now that they have said like they needed to take a time, I'm gonna call it a timeout, they needed a timeout.

Tracy Frederick (49:23)
Yep.

MIGHTY MERP (49:38)
to breathe and focus on what could bring them peace and happiness again. It almost got lost in the mix.

Tracy Frederick (49:44)
Yes.

Yeah, I think it does get lost in the mix because we're all, we're so busy and then we're trying to do everything so perfectly. And we all seem to forget about ourselves, right? Like it's the last thing you think of. And if you are not doing well, it's really hard to be leading, right? Everyone else effectively.

MIGHTY MERP (50:09)
Right. All right, so I'm going to ask you the questions that I ask most people at the end, most of my lawyer friends. I know you left the practice of law, but would you recommend to a college student who said I'm interested in becoming a lawyer, what would your words of advice be to them?

Tracy Frederick (50:31)
Yes, I loved being a lawyer. I still say that I am not gonna say that I'm not gonna try any more cases. Like life could be very different in five or 10 years and I may decide that I wanna try some cases again. If you know, the only thing I always caution people is just are you sure you wanna do this? You know, like try to shadow somebody, get some idea of something you might really wanna do.

whether it's civil, criminal, whatever it is, so that you know what it really is, because it's a huge investment financially and time-wise. And it seems that a lot of people just say, oh, I wanna be a lawyer, but they don't really know what they're getting into. I loved it, and I absolutely speak super highly of it, but I've seen a lot of people.

MIGHTY MERP (51:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Frederick (51:24)
not want to do it once they, you know, spent all that money on law school and then get to a big firm and realize they hate it. And that's a shame and it can be avoided if you could just spend a little bit time on the front end, making sure that it's something you really want to do. And there's so many people that are willing to have you come shadow a day at work and, and do things like that just to have a good idea. That's the only thing I would, I would suggest that people do, but I think it's a wonderful career.

MIGHTY MERP (51:51)
And you're right, so many lawyers will allow you to follow them and will mentor you, you know. So that's my one question. And my second question is my last question is, do you have a crazy courtroom story that you could share quickly? Something that people probably would not believe but really did happen.

Tracy Frederick (51:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I do actually. How do you say that? I was in court one day, I'm not gonna use any names, and a defense attorney was irate about something with a judge in Philly, of course, in state court. And they got into it, they were literally screaming at each other, the judge and this attorney, and the judge threatened to throw him in the back, and the Philly courtrooms have the jail cell, right in the courtroom.

MIGHTY MERP (52:21)
Yeah.

Tracy Frederick (52:45)
And he flipped out and he's like, go ahead, throw me. I've been back there before. I don't, I mean, it was wild. He did not put him in the back, but it was so close. And it was just crazy. Like, unless you'd been there, you wouldn't believe the way they were speaking to each other.

MIGHTY MERP (53:00)
Were the sheriff's officers surrounding the lawyer?

Tracy Frederick (53:03)
They weren't totally surrounding him, but they were like moving up, you know, it was heated. It was crazy.

MIGHTY MERP (53:12)
Yeah, I once, I've told this before, but I once was threatened to be thrown in the back at the courthouse because I rolled my eyes one too many times at the judge that day.

Tracy Frederick (53:25)
Oh wow, I've rolled my eyes many a time in a courtroom. It's hard to control sometimes.

MIGHTY MERP (53:32)
It is, but I learned that I was like 26, 27. And you know, when, when you have a judge learning and said, I will throw you in the back and you will need your supervisor to explain what medical condition you have that it was. Yeah. So, well, again, good luck. I'm so glad we got to connect. And

Tracy Frederick (53:35)
Yeah.

I'm gonna go to bed.

That's a good one.

MIGHTY MERP (53:57)
I really am excited for you about this opportunity because I do think it is needed. And as I said, I'm going to look, I might reach out to you.

Book a trip to Costa Rica.

Tracy Frederick (54:10)
That, well, we'd love to have you. It'd be great to see you. And thanks so much for having me and good luck and congratulations on your five year anniversary.

MIGHTY MERP (54:19)
Thank you, that's why I have those beautiful flowers behind me. And I'm going to take my office now to go celebrate.

Tracy Frederick (54:23)
Oh.

We'll have fun.

MIGHTY MERP (54:29)
Thank you. He's back.